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"Christian" is a useless term


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#61    Doug1o29

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 02:32 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 21 October 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

Not necessarily This is the doctrine adopted by the roman catholic church.There were many forms of Christian before this date including jewish and gnostic Christians. There have been many forms since, including the original protestant churches and modern churches which have returned to basic biblical principles While many of their basic beliefs are similar there are exception.s My wife's church and many others, from reading and study of the bible, do not believe in hell as a punishment for example. Nor do they believe that people go to heaven or hell when they die, but follow the bible teaching that we all rest in our graves until the judgement days. For them punishment is death. "the wages of sin is death." not eternity in hell.

ON the other hand, if read broadly, I guess many of those churches would believe in  god as the maker of heaven and earth, while many mainstream Christians (catholic and protestant) no longer would.
The Apostle's Creed version is the official statement of belief of the Presbyterian church.

The critical part is the belief that Jesus rose from the dead.  This proves he was God.  Thus, if you please him, you can be saved from death, too.  If Jesus did not rise from the dead, if this is just a story, then there is no "secret knowledge" that cannot be accessed by dint of mind.  If this is so, then the church is bogus and its demands for special treatment, are frauds.  So it all hinges on the one question:  did Jesus rise from the dead?
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#62    scowl

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 03:52 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 22 October 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

The critical part is the belief that Jesus rose from the dead.  This proves he was God.  Thus, if you please him, you can be saved from death, too.  If Jesus did not rise from the dead, if this is just a story, then there is no "secret knowledge" that cannot be accessed by dint of mind.  If this is so, then the church is bogus and its demands for special treatment, are frauds.  So it all hinges on the one question:  did Jesus rise from the dead?
Doug

Is this why most "Christians" don't know anything about the Bible and sometimes get mad when quote it?


#63    scowl

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 03:56 PM

View Postdanielost, on 22 October 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Sorry, I think you misunderstood my post.

Christ condemned groups of people, not the indivigual, the same wy I do the catholic church or gay people or the kkk.

You believe that homosexuals aren't a group of people. Then what are they?


#64    danielost

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 03:58 PM

No, they don't like being called stupid or retarded or told they don't understand something, just because they don't believe it.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#65    Doug1o29

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 08:10 PM

View Postscowl, on 22 October 2013 - 03:52 PM, said:

Is this why most "Christians" don't know anything about the Bible and sometimes get mad when quote it?
Most of the "Christians" I know don't read the Bible.  They find it boring.  They'd rather let a charlatan tell them what it says than actually be bothered to learn anything.

More is the pity.  It's a fascinating group of legends, like Beowulf and the Iliad.
Doug

Edited by Doug1o29, 22 October 2013 - 08:12 PM.

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#66    Mr Walker

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:42 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 22 October 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

The Apostle's Creed version is the official statement of belief of the Presbyterian church.

The critical part is the belief that Jesus rose from the dead.  This proves he was God.  Thus, if you please him, you can be saved from death, too.  If Jesus did not rise from the dead, if this is just a story, then there is no "secret knowledge" that cannot be accessed by dint of mind.  If this is so, then the church is bogus and its demands for special treatment, are frauds.  So it all hinges on the one question:  did Jesus rise from the dead?
Doug
I do not know if christ rose from the dead, and i choose not to believe in anything unknown. I was certain enough of this, aged about 12, to politely refuse to be confirmed in my mother's church. (The church of england in Australia) But I follow christ's teachings about what is known. How to live on earth and the rewards for all which this brings, including establishing the kingdom of heaven on earth, and direct connection to god.  I live as much like christ lived as i can. I claim to be christian by choice of life style, but i am not a believer, and do not think christ was exclusively the only path to god. God came directly to me, after all, which kind of disproves that piece of theology in my mind.

Edited by Mr Walker, 22 October 2013 - 11:45 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#67    danielost

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:44 PM

View Postscowl, on 22 October 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:



You believe that homosexuals aren't a group of people. Then what are they?

Again you twist what I said.  Homosexuals is a group while a gay person is an individual. I stand against homosexuals, but I treat the gay person the same as I would anyone else.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#68    scowl

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 05:37 PM

View Postdanielost, on 22 October 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

Again you twist what I said.  Homosexuals is a group while a gay person is an individual. I stand against homosexuals, but I treat the gay person the same as I would anyone else.

How could I twist your twisted claim that you respect a homosexual but don't respect homosexuals?

I guess an individual doesn't pose a threat to you but a group of them do.


#69    freetoroam

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:35 PM

View Postdanielost, on 22 October 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

Again you twist what I said.  Homosexuals is a group while a gay person is an individual. I stand against homosexuals, but I treat the gay person the same as I would anyone else.
And when 2 or more gay individuals get together, thats when you are against them?


#70    danielost

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:23 PM

No, the life style, it is a sin.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#71    Paranoid Android

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:54 PM

Perhaps it would be help to add some perspective. I am "against" premarital sex. Am I therefore intolerant of those who have premarital sex? Geez, if I was I'd be against an awful lot of people, including (but not limited to): my parents had sex before marriage, my brother had sex before marriage, my last girlfriend had two children out of marriage, my best friend from high school had premarital sex. That doesn't mean I am against any of them. But I do not approve of their actions.

But that's the point. It's THEIR actions, THEIR choices. They have the Right to live how they choose. Just because they live in a way that I wouldn't doesn't mean I don't value and respect them. But suddenly replace "premarital sex" with "homosexual" and I'm bigoted and intolerant. My comments about my parents, brother, ex-girlfriend, and best high school friend get relegated to the same line as "oh, I have gay friends" (which I do, just for the record, and actually find it funny that people see that as a negative when I bring it up).

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#72    freetoroam

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:03 PM

View Postdanielost, on 23 October 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

No, the life style, it is a sin.
What is the sin bit?
What is this "lifestyle" you are refering to?
Its ok for a gay person to be gay as long as they are on their own? You been watching too much little Britain:


#73    Mr Walker

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 02:09 AM

Certain lifestyles and practices bring certain consequences.

I try to convince people they should not drink or smoke. I disapprove of drinking and smoking  both because of their social cosst and also because o the harm it does to the individuals, but I love people who drink or smoke the same as non drinkers or smokers.. Homosexuality is more complex, being tied into not just a humans sexual orientation but their sense of identity. None the less, like obesity drinking and smoking, homosexuality poses dangers and costs to the individuals and societies  involved with it.

These must be managed on a social basis withoutr discrimination against individuals but with careful regard to the physical consequences of any behaviour.  The physical dangers for both men and women of same sex sex are as real, identifiable and known, as those for smoking or drinking. At least people can choose not to smoke or drink, but it is neither fair nor reasonable to expect people to refrain from loving others, or having sex with those they love. Thus more practical and realistic education, and  other methods, mu t be used to help homosexuals be safe. Man y GLBT health services do just this.

Edited by Mr Walker, 24 October 2013 - 02:31 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#74    scowl

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 04:29 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 24 October 2013 - 02:09 AM, said:

Certain lifestyles and practices bring certain consequences.


Ain't that the truth! My gay friends as a group are more happy than the married heterosexuals I know. I can understand why some people want them to burn in hell.


#75    Mr Walker

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Posted 25 October 2013 - 12:05 AM

View Postscowl, on 24 October 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

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Ain't that the truth! My gay friends as a group are more happy than the married heterosexuals I know. I can understand why some people want them to burn in hell.

I do not know any gay people to make this comparison. I would say it depends on why they are happy.

My wife maintains that happiness is not a good indicator of  the success of one's life although i am very happy with my life and marriage of 40 years.
I was talking of physical consequences which cannot be created by emotional or psychologica means. Homosexuals men and women have higher cancer rates than hetero sexuals just as smokers have higher cancer reates than non smokers. One link may be that homosexuals have a higher rate of both drinking and smoking than heterosexuals and thus an incresed incidence of cancers and other diseaes caused by these lifestyle behaviours.

The reasons WHY  homosexuals smoke and drink more is open to debate of course. In part it is because of social pressure and stress caused by discrimination, but also because statistically they spend moretime in places like bars, hotels and clubs, trying to find partners not available in the neighbourhood or work place.
However, certain sexual practices which are optional for heterosexuals, but essential for homosexuals during sex, do considerably increase the risk of some forms of cancer.
One has to be educated about these facts and act to minimise the harm.
PS No one burns in hell, because it does not exist.  The consequences of our lives are a direct result of our own choices and behaviours in life.

Edited by Mr Walker, 25 October 2013 - 12:08 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




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