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What is the Truth?


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#1    Ben Masada

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 02:56 AM

What is the Truth?

Once Jesus was asked about the Truth and he said that the Truth is the Word of God.(John 17:17) That's the Word of God which was given to the Jews only and to no other people on earth.(Psalm 147:19,20)

How is this then that so many different kinds of beliefs claim to teach the Truth? That's true but if they submit their claims to the test of Isaiah 8:20 all collapse but one.

Isaiah says in 8:20 that, "To the Law and the Prophets; if they don't teach according to this word, it is because they do no teach the Truth."

Interesting to notice, Isaiah mentions above two words, "Law and the Prophets" then says that if they do not teach according to "this word" as if he had mentioned only one word it is because Judaism was in his mind. According to Judaism.

Who teaches according to the Law and the Prophets if not the Jews? It means that they are the only ones to teach according to the Truth. The only one claim that did not collapse.

Jesus himself was a good example of a Jew who taught according to the Law and the Prophets if you read Matthew 5:17-19. His Apostles followed the same method and headquartered themselves in Jerusalem to coexist peacefully with mainstream Judaism.

One day Paul decided to bring his gospel to Jerusalem and was almost killed for teaching idolatry in Jerusalem as he was preaching about Jesus as Christ, son of God and that he had resurrected.(II Timothy 2:8) It means that his gospel was different from that of the Apostles. Hence he named them false apostles for preaching about a different Jesus from the one he was preaching. (II Cor. 11:3-6,13) In other words Paul did not pass the test of Isaiah 8:20 for not preaching the Truth.


#2    and then

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 03:09 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 26 October 2013 - 02:56 AM, said:

What is the Truth?

Once Jesus was asked about the Truth and he said that the Truth is the Word of God.(John 17:17) That's the Word of God which was given to the Jews only and to no other people on earth.(Psalm 147:19,20)

How is this then that so many different kinds of beliefs claim to teach the Truth? That's true but if they submit their claims to the test of Isaiah 8:20 all collapse but one.

Isaiah says in 8:20 that, "To the Law and the Prophets; if they don't teach according to this word, it is because they do no teach the Truth."

Interesting to notice, Isaiah mentions above two words, "Law and the Prophets" then says that if they do not teach according to "this word" as if he had mentioned only one word it is because Judaism was in his mind. According to Judaism.

Who teaches according to the Law and the Prophets if not the Jews? It means that they are the only ones to teach according to the Truth. The only one claim that did not collapse.

Jesus himself was a good example of a Jew who taught according to the Law and the Prophets if you read Matthew 5:17-19. His Apostles followed the same method and headquartered themselves in Jerusalem to coexist peacefully with mainstream Judaism.

One day Paul decided to bring his gospel to Jerusalem and was almost killed for teaching idolatry in Jerusalem as he was preaching about Jesus as Christ, son of God and that he had resurrected.(II Timothy 2:8) It means that his gospel was different from that of the Apostles. Hence he named them false apostles for preaching about a different Jesus from the one he was preaching. (II Cor. 11:3-6,13) In other words Paul did not pass the test of Isaiah 8:20 for not preaching the Truth.
Most Christians will disagree Ben.  I thtink we will soon get the answer from the One who knows for sure :)  Til then - peace.

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  for what could be, the darkest age...

#3    StarMountainKid

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 03:31 AM

The truth is a pathless land.

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#4    Paranoid Android

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 03:53 AM

Ben, 2 Timothy is written in the context of Paul being imprisoned in Rome, not " almost killed for teaching idolatry in Jerusalem". Add to this that 2 Corinthians 11:3-6, 13 is not referring to the 11 apostles of Jesus, and I have no choice but to reject the entire premise of your post, except to agree that the Hebrew scriptures are indeed the word of God (I happen to believe the New Testament is also God's word though).

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#5    Labyrinthus

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 04:36 AM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 26 October 2013 - 03:31 AM, said:

The truth is a pathless land.

True.

Which is why walking it is referred to as the razor's edge.


#6    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 04:42 AM

View PostStarMountainKid, on 26 October 2013 - 03:31 AM, said:

The truth is a pathless land.
Your metaphor makes me think; if we say that the purpose of our journey in life is truth, and we seek paths to it (which is I think the most common metaphor), then it would seem we are wasting out time.


#7    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 04:48 AM

We can assess what comes at us on a variety of scales.  There is the good/evil scale, the beautiful/ugly scale, the useful/useless scale and related to it the valuable/worthless scale.  These and no doubt others are value judgments.

The question now is whether where we put something on a true/false scale is also a value judgment.  I think, having finite access to knowledge and finite wisdom, we have no choice but to largely do that -- to take as true those things from sources we trust and honor and to take as false things from sources we don't trust.  Of course that means we have already made a value judgment about those sources.


#8    Labyrinthus

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 04:53 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 October 2013 - 04:42 AM, said:

Your metaphor makes me think; if we say that the purpose of our journey in life is truth, and we seek paths to it (which is I think the most common metaphor), then it would seem we are wasting out time.

I do not say, " that the purpose of our journey in life is truth", Truth is a fruit of the well led life.
THE PURPOSE is a matter of 'choosing well' and executing in impeccable fashion". TRUTH is the result of living a Life with Purpose... however miniscule it might be.


#9    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 05:01 AM

Truth is unattainable, and your seeming assertion otherwise strikes me as unwise.  We obtain individual truths, I suppose, surrounded by caveats, and always being careful to avoid the traps of ideology.


#10    Labyrinthus

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 05:01 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 October 2013 - 04:48 AM, said:

We can assess what comes at us on a variety of scales.  There is the good/evil scale, the beautiful/ugly scale, the useful/useless scale and related to it the valuable/worthless scale.  These and no doubt others are value judgments.

The question now is whether where we put something on a true/false scale is also a value judgment.  I think, having finite access to knowledge and finite wisdom, we have no choice but to largely do that -- to take as true those things from sources we trust and honor and to take as false things from sources we don't trust.  Of course that means we have already made a value judgment about those sources.

Knowledge is finite .
Wisdom is infinite.

"to take as true those things from sources we trust and honor and to take as false things from sources we don't trust." is totally lame, imho.
Trust but verify. Test the ancient wisdom on a faith based method. Apply the sacred knowledge. Observe the outcome. Adjust accordingly and proceed apace.


#11    Labyrinthus

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 05:03 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 October 2013 - 05:01 AM, said:

Truth is unattainable,

Speak for yourself.


#12    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 05:05 AM

We are obviously talking past each other; at least you are not listening.  "Wisdom is infinite" strikes me as empty words trying to sound wise.

I included a warning about ideology, which you ignored.  Faith is perhaps the most dangerous ideology there is, and I think I see clear evidence of its danger in what you have just posted.

If you actually think Truth is attainable I feel sorry for you.


#13    Labyrinthus

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 05:13 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 26 October 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

We are obviously talking past each other; at least you are not listening.  "Wisdom is infinite" strikes me as empty words trying to sound wise.

I included a warning about ideology, which you ignored.  Faith is perhaps the most dangerous ideology there is, and I think I see clear evidence of its danger in what you have just posted.

If you actually think Truth is attainable I feel sorry for you.

And I obviously disagree with you.
I am not the first to observe that knowledge is finite and wisdom is infinite.
(And... just *who* is not listening?)

Faith is dangerous maybe... but only in the wrong hands. It is most efficacious for those who know how to use it properly.

Edited by Labyrinthus, 26 October 2013 - 05:29 AM.


#14    Frank Merton

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 05:49 AM

How do you measure wisdom?  What is "infinite" and how is it that it is endless (or does infinite mean something else?)  This strikes me as gibberish unless you want to explain it.


#15    Leonardo

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 11:44 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 26 October 2013 - 02:56 AM, said:

What is the Truth?

"Truth", in the context you place the word, is only what a person believes it to be. It has no more value as an objective measure carrying some value, than that. When considering the impact of religious teachings on the perception of "Truth", then that impact is only to limit the perception to conform to what another has believed.

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