Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* - - - - 5 votes

How ghosts can exist - scientific overview

ghosts scientif explanation

  • Please log in to reply
98 replies to this topic

#76    sinewave

sinewave

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 6,099 posts
  • Joined:23 Aug 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Midwest

  • Belief proves nothing. Show me the science.

Posted 06 November 2013 - 06:09 PM

View Postscowl, on 06 November 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

This is the most important thing I learned about science: humans suck as objective observers. We humans need the Scientific Method to prove things because our lousy senses combined with the social pressure to conform can make any number of people believe almost anything.

Exactly right. Without science we are left with primitive beliefs that lead us to burn witches, throw rocks at eclipses, and believe Earth is the center of the Universe.

Edited by sinewave, 06 November 2013 - 06:09 PM.


#77    sinewave

sinewave

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 6,099 posts
  • Joined:23 Aug 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Midwest

  • Belief proves nothing. Show me the science.

Posted 06 November 2013 - 06:14 PM

Does anyone have anything to add to the point the OP was trying to make at the top of this thread?  The linked article has not really been discussed and we are on the 6th page already.


#78    DieChecker

DieChecker

    I'm a Rogue Scholar

  • Member
  • 16,673 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, Oregon, USA

  • Hey, I'm not wrong. I'm just not completely right.

Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:14 PM

View Postsinewave, on 06 November 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Does anyone have anything to add to the point the OP was trying to make at the top of this thread?  The linked article has not really been discussed and we are on the 6th page already.
What is to discuss? It is mostly obvious rubbish.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#79    sinewave

sinewave

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 6,099 posts
  • Joined:23 Aug 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Midwest

  • Belief proves nothing. Show me the science.

Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:34 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 06 November 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

What is to discuss? It is mostly obvious rubbish.

Yep :)  I think the OP bailed pretty much right away.

Edited by sinewave, 06 November 2013 - 10:35 PM.


#80    DancingCorpse

DancingCorpse

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,430 posts
  • Joined:16 Jul 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Castle Discordia

  • Finite to fail, infinite to venture!

Posted 07 November 2013 - 01:36 AM

I'm not sure ghosts exist in a constant state of 'life' so to speak, they seem to peek in and out of our concept of existing/processing information. There seems to four types.

Poltergeists - no visual accompaniment, objects go inexplicably missing and return in odd places, doors slam, objects whizz across the room etc Usually intense burst of activity and often in tandem with a person in the household/building going through a rough emotional time, or a particularly wild teenager. This leads me to believe the phenomenon is either attracted to, or somehow created by these emotional states kinda like unconscious tulpa concept, the mind is freaking weird enough.

Residual Hauntings - Imprints, echoes, loops... completely unaware of human observation, apparitions that take specific routes within the area. Such as figures strolling merrily down a particular hallway and vanishing straight through a wall if it doesn't correspond to how the building appeared in their time period, groups of soldiers have been known to appear in marching file for a minute or so then vanish, a woman appearing out of thin air repeatedly reported in the SAME room and walking to the SAME specific window to stare out of then gradually fading. There is no known reason/pattern to the 'playback' or residual hauntings, we can guess at their resonance. Emotion being high during the moment for the captured spirit perhaps. Then why isn't the whole world interwoven with these events? Is there a specific state of mind the viewer/witness must be tuned into? Conditions of the location have to somehow correspond? Is the recording on an unknowable cycle?? Who knows? The sightings are frequent and reported by DIFFERENT people, yet describing exactly the same thing, say, in hotels or old battlefields or even streets. Folks can dismiss that as mere publicity grabbing yet many aren't even aware of the premises being haunted and have little to gain.

'Doppelgangers/Crisis Apparitions' - Seen often, and this is a frequently reported phenomena, when a loved one is facing death, kinda like a link has been severed and the chemical link between you and that person is at its most extreme, during disconnection. What the HELL could cause this? We know humans are linked deeper than through a phone network or mere vision and there are instances of telekinesis, shared dreaming, predicting small things in the future, all very primal and raw investigations really, the brain is a strange contraption. Dreaming alone should tell us that. There is no scientific rationale for getting a clear, startling image of a person you know before or at the moment they die. Naturally, a person could make up their own resolution after they find out terrible news and PRETEND they saw what they wanted to see somewhere in the recent past, I don't think this can account for every single person.

Active spirits - If you have an active ghost, in any degree of the term, you're going to pick up on it eventually. Endless tales are out there. Why can't they come and have a nice chat and cup of tea with us and explain the deranged mess that is death? Why do they resort to knocking, whispering, phantom touches, banging, reverting to seemingly not existing 90% of the time, messing with the electricity, turning into flashing orbs, moving our crap, fleetingly appearing and then disappearing before we can ascertain just what the hell we might have seen out of the corner of our eyes? It's extremely rare to encounter a somewhat fully manifested spirit and even then there is very little communication, maybe a smile, gesture, grim stare, word or fragmented sentence... it's as if they are weak, weak imitations/shells/remnants of a living person's capacity. Unless it's a negative ghost it doesn't cause much hassle but can be a little unnerving. I don't feel they are truly aware, or if so, it must be a very fractured/confusing state that they 'deal' with overtime, if the very vague concept of 'they haven't crossed over' has an element of truth.

So many ponders though... Wouldn't it be watching you in the bathroom, sleeping with your partner, doing your taxes? Could it levitate a knife and stab me? Can it go next door, why are they bound to particular locations? Did that person in their life enter next door or go elsewhere in town? If so, why doesn't it wander around there? Maybe that's where it goes when I can't see/hear it bothering me? Why is it pale, if it can move my goddamn bowl of fruit can't it paint some freaking clothes? Why whenever I see it is it wearing those stupid victorian rags? Why won't it entertain me by juggling some lightbulbs? Could I catch it in a pokeball and teach it tricks and make money from youtube? Why is it so evasive? Does it get the sniffles? I never hear it sneeze, I worry about the darn thing more than my own kids, what's wrong with me??

It's all so peculiar! I believe ghosts will be explained a kinda 'mild reflection' of a person's essence one day. Unremarkable processes to our children'schildren'schildren'schildren or summat like that. Folks used to think hurricanes were monsters and the wrath of god could be appeased by sacrifice heh.

Overhead the albatross hangs motionless upon the air and deep beneath the rolling waves, in labyrinths of coral caves, The echo of a distant tide comes willowing across the sand and everything is green and submarine...

You're neither. You're an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill.

#81    Leonardo

Leonardo

    Awake

  • Member
  • 14,989 posts
  • Joined:20 Oct 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

  • Hell is a guilty conscience

Posted 07 November 2013 - 12:59 PM

View Post_Only, on 03 November 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

I would hope not, because that would defeat the purpose. And I do believe belief serves an important purpose. Unfortunately, I can't explain how.

Belief does have a purpose, belief's purpose is to explain things so as to remove (or alleviate) our fear of what is unknown.

Unfortunately, belief fails spectacularly in it's purpose because it does not rationalise the explanation to the universe around us, therefore simply creating more 'unknowns' to fear.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#82    sinewave

sinewave

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 6,099 posts
  • Joined:23 Aug 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Midwest

  • Belief proves nothing. Show me the science.

Posted 07 November 2013 - 01:18 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 07 November 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Belief does have a purpose, belief's purpose is to explain things so as to remove (or alleviate) our fear of what is unknown.

Unfortunately, belief fails spectacularly in it's purpose because it does not rationalise the explanation to the universe around us, therefore simply creating more 'unknowns' to fear.

Well said.


#83    Mikko-kun

Mikko-kun

    Docking station

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,420 posts
  • Joined:27 Apr 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Circle

  • Beware geniuses, for they invent things like atom bomb

Posted 07 November 2013 - 04:39 PM

DancingCorpse, ghosts may be different from those who passed away and went to wherever they did. I'm no expert on the topic but in NDE's I recall people see what they want to see most of the time, like a christian god for christians, Allah for muslims, Buddha for buddhists and so on. If death is like that, or that that's the passing phase to something beyond this physical dimension, perhaps ghosts are stuck in the passing phase. Because sound and color are basically physical, as well as temperature. Vibrations of physical.

If it's something like a form of enlightment to go pass through this world to the next, something where you need to make a resolution of sorts, resolution of faith perhaps, whether your faith is that Cthulhu devours all in the end or that there's nothing or that it's one of the gods you picked or was picked to you. I'm thinking it'd be indecisiviness that'd keep them here, ghosts, that makes them incompatible with whatever realm or dimension or state they're trying to pass to. That they can't or at least dont want to properly communicate with us like you point out seems to speak of lack of enlightment or such, and I can't bring myself to believe none of them would want to properly communicate with us, what would be the odds? And why?

I'll be gone.

#84    sinewave

sinewave

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 6,099 posts
  • Joined:23 Aug 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Midwest

  • Belief proves nothing. Show me the science.

Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:04 AM

View PostMikko-kun, on 07 November 2013 - 04:39 PM, said:

DancingCorpse, ghosts may be different from those who passed away and went to wherever they did. I'm no expert on the topic but in NDE's I recall people see what they want to see most of the time, like a christian god for christians, Allah for muslims, Buddha for buddhists and so on. If death is like that, or that that's the passing phase to something beyond this physical dimension, perhaps ghosts are stuck in the passing phase. Because sound and color are basically physical, as well as temperature. Vibrations of physical.

If it's something like a form of enlightment to go pass through this world to the next, something where you need to make a resolution of sorts, resolution of faith perhaps, whether your faith is that Cthulhu devours all in the end or that there's nothing or that it's one of the gods you picked or was picked to you. I'm thinking it'd be indecisiviness that'd keep them here, ghosts, that makes them incompatible with whatever realm or dimension or state they're trying to pass to. That they can't or at least dont want to properly communicate with us like you point out seems to speak of lack of enlightment or such, and I can't bring myself to believe none of them would want to properly communicate with us, what would be the odds? And why?

NDEs are the product of a brain under serious stress in its final minutes of life.  The idea of the experience being anything else seems more than a little absurd to me.  The phenomenon is not well understood but there are radical brain chemistry changes that occur as blood oxygen levels drop that more than account for hallucinations and the sensations commonly reported.


#85    Kahn

Kahn

    Extraterrestrial Entity

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 467 posts
  • Joined:29 Apr 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Abingdon, MD

  • Ignorance is no substitute for intelligence.

Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:53 AM

I'm sorry, but I read the article and while accurate about the limitation of human senses, it fails completely to take into account how humans have augmented those senses to perceive that which is outside our senses.  We can't see in the dark, so we invented night vision goggles.  We can't see things very far away coming at us, so we invent radar.  We can't see vary far under water, so we invent sonar.

With all these gizmos around, some being employed by paranormal investigators, if ghosts were as prevalent as the article indirectly implies (i.e. all around us all the time), then we should be picking them up constantly.

This does not rule out the existence of ghosts, it just invalidates the author's model.


#86    sinewave

sinewave

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 6,099 posts
  • Joined:23 Aug 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Midwest

  • Belief proves nothing. Show me the science.

Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:15 AM

View PostKahn, on 08 November 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but I read the article and while accurate about the limitation of human senses, it fails completely to take into account how humans have augmented those senses to perceive that which is outside our senses.  We can't see in the dark, so we invented night vision goggles.  We can't see things very far away coming at us, so we invent radar.  We can't see vary far under water, so we invent sonar.

With all these gizmos around, some being employed by paranormal investigators, if ghosts were as prevalent as the article indirectly implies (i.e. all around us all the time), then we should be picking them up constantly.

This does not rule out the existence of ghosts, it just invalidates the author's model.

Yes, the amazing science-based "article" is patently absurd.  Precisely, the author makes a perfect case for NOT being able to sense ghosts with the five basics even though that is how most believers claim to have experienced them.


#87    _Only

_Only

  • Member
  • 6,487 posts
  • Joined:24 Oct 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

  • Did you ever grow anything in the garden of your mind? You can grow ideas, in the garden of your mind. - Mr. Rogers

Posted 08 November 2013 - 06:45 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 07 November 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Belief does have a purpose, belief's purpose is to explain things so as to remove (or alleviate) our fear of what is unknown.

Erm, I still can't quite agree, because, while this does apply in some cases (like why some people choose to believe in ghosts), the belief is not an explanation itself. The explanation is. Belief just means acceptance of something that hasn't been proven. It isn't in itself doing any explaining. It's a byproduct, which some find more undesirable than others.

I love to make mashups! Click here to hear!
I also love taking pictures! Click here to see!
I love to play drums, too! Whatever you do, don't click here!

#88    Frank Merton

Frank Merton

    Blue fish

  • Member
  • 12,586 posts
  • Joined:22 Jan 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

  • I dunno --

Posted 08 November 2013 - 06:55 AM

The NDE is a relatively new, Western cultural phenomenon, one that I never heard of in the States until maybe twenty years ago and is still unheard of here.

It's kinda like alien kidnappings that way.  Once the story got currency lots of others reported very similar events.  The same thing can be said of visions of the Virgin Mary, various ghost encounters, Sasquatch encounters, and a host of other reports.  I conclude that there are a lot of people who respond to suggestion.


#89    sinewave

sinewave

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 6,099 posts
  • Joined:23 Aug 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Midwest

  • Belief proves nothing. Show me the science.

Posted 08 November 2013 - 06:58 AM

View Post_Only, on 08 November 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

Erm, I still can't quite agree, because, while this does apply in some cases (like why some people choose to believe in ghosts), the belief is not an explanation itself. The explanation is. Belief just means acceptance of something that hasn't been proven. It isn't in itself doing any explaining. It's a byproduct, which some find more undesirable than others.

The point is beliefs attempt to explain why things happen and science often really does.  Belief says sacrifice a virgin to the volcano gods and the crops grow.  Science says till the soil in a particular way and plant the seeds at this interval in rows spaced this far apart.  Rotate your plantings this way to replenish the soil and the crops will grow.


#90    Mikko-kun

Mikko-kun

    Docking station

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,420 posts
  • Joined:27 Apr 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Circle

  • Beware geniuses, for they invent things like atom bomb

Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:15 AM

View PostKahn, on 08 November 2013 - 04:53 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but I read the article and while accurate about the limitation of human senses, it fails completely to take into account how humans have augmented those senses to perceive that which is outside our senses.  We can't see in the dark, so we invented night vision goggles.  We can't see things very far away coming at us, so we invent radar.  We can't see vary far under water, so we invent sonar.

With all these gizmos around, some being employed by paranormal investigators, if ghosts were as prevalent as the article indirectly implies (i.e. all around us all the time), then we should be picking them up constantly.

This does not rule out the existence of ghosts, it just invalidates the author's model.

I dont know if it's so, because the jury seems to be still out there on QM about some things, and that we haven't discovered everything there is to discover in physics through those devices.

But you'd think that we had already evolved to sense ghosts with our senses if they were there, because my logic says that they should have been here since neanderthal and before, animal ghosts included if they had resentments. Though I doubt that they'd have second thoughts as much as we do. Resentment and clinging to things unnecessarily seems to be an adult thing, I'd say a result of complicated society. Perhaps there's more ghosts to be around than what the reports suggest but only the ones who rattle our reality get noted.

I'll be gone.





Also tagged with ghosts, scientif, explanation

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users