Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * - - - 3 votes

Son of God Divi Filius Augustus Caesar


  • Please log in to reply
55 replies to this topic

#16    davros of skaro

davros of skaro

    The Holy Dopamine Ghost

  • Member
  • 5,367 posts
  • Joined:08 Sep 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Skaro

  • Watching the Star Wars The Force Awakens trailers: I get Goosebumps, and I feel waves of emotions. This is proof that "The Force" is real. :D

Posted 31 October 2013 - 12:19 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 31 October 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

They are still two narratives unrelated to one another that appear similar if you stretch some random facts to appear similar

Would this be another example of the point you are trying to make?

Mark 8:23 When he had spit on the man's eyes and put his hands on him.

Suetonius, The Lives of the Caesars The Life of Vespasian p299 chapter 7 line 2

Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them.

Hadrian's letter to Servianus 134 CE "The worshipers of Serapis are called Christians,and those who are devoted to the god Serapis,call themselves Bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis."

View PostParanoid Android, on 31 October 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:


Is it just me or does it seem that people obsessed with one conspiracy theory or another is compelled to copy-paste their alleged evidence over and over, as if anyone reading it will shout "Hallelujah, you've really figured it out".

Is it me, or does it seem like believers use weak apologetic arguments instead of doing actual research because they are afraid of what they might find, and just nit pick as if victorious?

Posted Image
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "Mythical Jesus" Dr. Carrier
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=IybD2xzkhtc <-- "Mythical Moses" Dr. Price (starts@10:20)
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <-- Science Behind Irrational Beliefs
Inanna the Goddess of love was crucified, then after 3 days/nights was resurrected. An over 3,000 yo Tablet saying this is proof of it's truth. Praise Jesus Serotonin Christ!

#17    davros of skaro

davros of skaro

    The Holy Dopamine Ghost

  • Member
  • 5,367 posts
  • Joined:08 Sep 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Skaro

  • Watching the Star Wars The Force Awakens trailers: I get Goosebumps, and I feel waves of emotions. This is proof that "The Force" is real. :D

Posted 31 October 2013 - 12:22 PM

View PostThe Gremlin, on 31 October 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

Caesar was voted posthumous divine honours. Demetrius poliorcetes was voted divine honours whilst he was alive. Lysander was another, there are more, including Alexander and his father Phil. Both who had divine honours awarded during their lives. More than anyone it is likely that Alexander paved the way for peoples acceptance of the concept in the Greek and Roman world

Exactly, and such a concept is nothing new, but was used politicaly.

Posted Image
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "Mythical Jesus" Dr. Carrier
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=IybD2xzkhtc <-- "Mythical Moses" Dr. Price (starts@10:20)
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <-- Science Behind Irrational Beliefs
Inanna the Goddess of love was crucified, then after 3 days/nights was resurrected. An over 3,000 yo Tablet saying this is proof of it's truth. Praise Jesus Serotonin Christ!

#18    Doug1o29

Doug1o29

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,375 posts
  • Joined:01 Aug 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:oklahoma

Posted 31 October 2013 - 04:54 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 29 October 2013 - 11:49 PM, said:

Due to only having a phone and limited bandwidth I haven't seen the video, but the OP's track history suggests he's attempting to argue that Caesar is the template for the Jesus tale. In order to do this one must stretch the known facts and for them into a narrative. The link I provided showed the problem in this, since whoever constructed that web page was able to stretch the similarities to "prove" that a zombie-apocalypse episodic TV-show was based on a Family movie about cute talking toys. But if you look at the wider story of the two, there is almost nothing in common between Toy Story and The Walking Dead, let alone a reason to think that one of them copied the other.

In essence, Davros is taking the Jesus narrative, and attempting to force Julius Caesar's life into that narrative.
Let's see here.  Augustus Caesar (Octavian) ruled from 27 BC to 14 AD.  The biblical Jesus was executed in 33 AD.  The earliest known snippet of text to make it into the gospels is a quotation from Philo written in 41 AD describing the hazing of a mentally-challenged man named Carabbas in which the tormenters placed a purple robe on him and hung a sign around his neck that read "King of the Jews."  Sound familiar?

The earliest known reference to the gospels is from Ireneaus' "Against Heresies" Book III, written about 186AD; although, there is a reference in Book I (c. 183 AD) to Matthew that probably refers to what we now call the Gospel of Matthew.  Theophilus of Antioch mentioned the Book of John shortly before his death in 180 AD.

I can make a circumstantial case for Matthew and Mark having been written between 132 and 135 AD, but there is no actual reference to them from that time.  Whether Luke/Acts was a source for Marcion (excommunicated in 144AD), or whether Marcion was a source for Luke/Acts has never been clearly demonstrated.  One can argue forever whether Justin ("Second Apology"; c. 152 AD) quoted from the gospels or whether the gospel writers quoted Justin, but I note that Justin's sources weren't the modern gospels - Justin tells of the Jordan catching fire as Jesus emerges from it after being baptized.  That story didn't come from the modern versions.

One can also trace the evolution of Jesus' divinity by comparing the dates of ancient writings:  in earlier ones there is no mention of his divinity, but as time passes, stories of his divinity get added.

All things considered, basing the Jesus stories in part on Augustus Caesar fits right into the way things were done in those days.  I agree that there is no solid evidence that this was done, but then again, there is no solid evidence that this wasn't done.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#19    Paranoid Android

Paranoid Android

    ????????

  • 28,287 posts
  • Joined:17 Apr 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NSW Mid-North Coast

  • Paranoid Android... *whaa--*

Posted 01 November 2013 - 07:39 AM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 31 October 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Would this be another example of the point you are trying to make?

Mark 8:23 When he had spit on the man's eyes and put his hands on him.

Suetonius, The Lives of the Caesars The Life of Vespasian p299 chapter 7 line 2

Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them.

Hadrian's letter to Servianus 134 CE "The worshipers of Serapis are called Christians,and those who are devoted to the god Serapis,call themselves Bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis."
ideally I'd like the full context of the quote. I googled the text from Suetonius and the first links that popped up were pro-copycat videos saying "see, proof of Jesus myth". That always raises a red flag for me since a google search of this normally links to scholarly sites if there is actual basis for it in scholarship (eg, when I google the phrase "Isis-Meri" the first links are always to Horus = copycat Messiah for Jesus).

But assuming the quote is contextually accurate, at least it's a million times better than the absurd parallels suggested like "Jesus had an affinity for the masses, Caesar had an affinity for the masses, therefore this is evidence Jesus copied from Caesar".


Quote

s it me, or does it seem like believers use weak apologetic arguments instead of doing actual research because they are afraid of what they might find, and just nit pick as if victorious?
I was simply pointing out the futility in constantly posting a massive Wall of Text (link). Those who are passionate about a conspiracy topic often employ the tactic because they feel that anyone who reads it must agree with the (in their mind) obviousness of the information. Unfortunately what actually happens is that people go cross-eyed and simply skim the material (or else skip the post altogether). Especially when it's repeated over and over through several threads.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 01 November 2013 - 10:48 AM.

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#20    Dash--

Dash--

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 182 posts
  • Joined:13 May 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Around

Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:58 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 01 November 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

ideally I'd like the full context of the quote. I googled the text from Suetonius and the first links that popped up were pro-copycat videos saying "see, proof of Jesus myth". That always raises a red flag for me since a google search of this normally links to scholarly sites if there is actual basis for it in scholarship (eg, when I google the phrase "Isis-Meri" the first links are always to Horus = copycat Messiah for Jesus).

But assuming the quote is contextually accurate, at least it's a million times better than the absurd parallels suggested like "Jesus had an affinity for the masses, Caesar had an affinity for the masses, therefore this is evidence Jesus copied from Caesar".


I was simply pointing out the futility in constantly posting a massive Wall of Text (link). Those who are passionate about a conspiracy topic often employ the tactic because they feel that anyone who reads it must agree with the (in their mind) obviousness of the information. Unfortunately what actually happens is that people go cross-eyed and simply skim the material (or else skip the post altogether). Especially when it's repeated over and over through several threads.
Hi P.A.
Not the Seotonius quote,But concerning The Letter to Servanius:
From Hadrian Augustus to Servianus the consul, greeting. The land of Egypt, the praises of which you have been recounting to me, my dear Servianus, I have found to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumour. There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis. There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer. Even the Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Christ. [The letter continues on to non-religious matters.]
From the Historia Augusta.Roughly dated to the 4th century http://en.wikipedia....ki/Talk:Serapis

Glanwill W. Bowersock, in a proceeding volume of the Genevan conference on the Historiae Augusae gives a scholastic survey of the dating of the texts.  He writes:

“The presence of fiction in the Historia Augusta is by now an established fact.  The mischievous author of this work pretended, as we all know, to be writing historical biographies; but this pretense, though compelling the inclusion of genuine historical material, imposed no perceptible limits on his wit and invention.”


Günter Stemberger (PhD Jewish studies, Innsbruck and Göttingen), commenting on the Serapis letter confirms, “We should hardly assume the existence of an actual event on which these remarks were based.”

http://benstanhope.b...pot.com/2013/03


For more info http://en.wikipedia....ugustan_History


Hope it helps :tu:



Edited by Dash--, 01 November 2013 - 03:10 PM.

We live in a sunlit world of what we believe to be reality,but...

#21    The Gremlin

The Gremlin

    Gnawing at the ankles of Falsehood

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,015 posts
  • Joined:19 Feb 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cymru

  • sniffing the finger of truth

Posted 01 November 2013 - 04:24 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 31 October 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:


Let's see here.  Augustus Caesar (Octavian) ruled from 27 BC to 14 AD.  The biblical Jesus was executed in 33 AD.  The earliest known snippet of text to make it into the gospels is a quotation from Philo written in 41 AD describing the hazing of a mentally-challenged man named Carabbas in which the tormenters placed a purple robe on him and hung a sign around his neck that read "King of the Jews."  Sound familiar?

The earliest known reference to the gospels is from Ireneaus' "Against Heresies" Book III, written about 186AD; although, there is a reference in Book I (c. 183 AD) to Matthew that probably refers to what we now call the Gospel of Matthew.  Theophilus of Antioch mentioned the Book of John shortly before his death in 180 AD.

I can make a circumstantial case for Matthew and Mark having been written between 132 and 135 AD, but there is no actual reference to them from that time.  Whether Luke/Acts was a source for Marcion (excommunicated in 144AD), or whether Marcion was a source for Luke/Acts has never been clearly demonstrated.  One can argue forever whether Justin ("Second Apology"; c. 152 AD) quoted from the gospels or whether the gospel writers quoted Justin, but I note that Justin's sources weren't the modern gospels - Justin tells of the Jordan catching fire as Jesus emerges from it after being baptized.  That story didn't come from the modern versions.

One can also trace the evolution of Jesus' divinity by comparing the dates of ancient writings:  in earlier ones there is no mention of his divinity, but as time passes, stories of his divinity get added.

All things considered, basing the Jesus stories in part on Augustus Caesar fits right into the way things were done in those days.  I agree that there is no solid evidence that this was done, but then again, there is no solid evidence that this wasn't done.
Doug
It's possible that a form of apotheosis occured to some extent, but the development of the Christ concept owes more to neoplatonism, than it does to Caesar. The progressive philosophical atmosphere at the time demanded certain prerequisites were met. It was its inclusive nature that made early christianity more successful than its many competitors. So its more than just promoting a human to godhood through myths and legends, though this did occur: it answered an important metaphysical need within an unified framework.

I rarely talk about such things but I once shoveled 18 tons of material in 11 min-
utes. It was under ideal conditions which allowed use of the legs and gravity
but I know no one who could have matched it and I do know work
.
...Cladking
If you were a dragon wouldn't you rather eat fat, alocohol fill, Nordic giants, than stringy little Chinamen?   Draconic Chronicler.
You claim you do research and then disregard the fact the Pyramids were built by God, which is why no man-made computer can replicate it.  The Interpreter

#22    davros of skaro

davros of skaro

    The Holy Dopamine Ghost

  • Member
  • 5,367 posts
  • Joined:08 Sep 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Skaro

  • Watching the Star Wars The Force Awakens trailers: I get Goosebumps, and I feel waves of emotions. This is proof that "The Force" is real. :D

Posted 01 November 2013 - 09:11 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 01 November 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

ideally I'd like the full context of the quote. I googled the text from Suetonius and the first links that popped up were pro-copycat videos saying "see, proof of Jesus myth". That always raises a red flag for me since a google search of this normally links to scholarly sites if there is actual basis for it in scholarship (eg, when I google the phrase "Isis-Meri" the first links are always to Horus = copycat Messiah for Jesus).

http://penelope.uchi...Vespasian*.html

Chapter 7

2 Vespasian as yet lacked prestige and a certain divinity, so to speak, since he was an unexpected and still new-made emperor; but these also were given him. A man of the people who was blind, and another who was lame, came to him together as he sat on the tribunal, begging for the help for their disorders which Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them, and give strength to the leg, if he would deign to touch it with his heel. 3 Though he had hardly any faith that this could possibly succeed, and therefore shrank even from making the attempt, he was at last prevailed upon by his friends and tried both things in public before a large crowd; and with success. At this same time, by the direction of certain soothsayers, some vases of antique workmanship were dug up in a consecrated spot at Tegea in Arcadia and on them was an image very like Vespasian.

^ Is this good enough?

View PostParanoid Android, on 01 November 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

But assuming the quote is contextually accurate, at least it's a million times better than the absurd parallels suggested like "Jesus had an affinity for the masses, Caesar had an affinity for the masses, therefore this is evidence Jesus copied from Caesar".


I was wrong for Jesus did not display affinity for the masses, or atleast when Gentiles were concerned when he was asked for help by a Greek born women.He shows favor for the people of Isreal saying "First let the children eat all they want", then calling others dogs "for it is not right to take the childrens bread, and toss it to their dogs."Then when the Greek women shown faith (putting it lightly) he helped her then "Yes my Lord she replied, but even the dogs under the table eat the childrens crumbs."

Mark 7:24-7:30  Matthew 15:21-15:28 (See both passage verses to see full context.)

I am not saying Jesus copied from Julius Caesar, but Jesus is a later literary invention that is drawn from Greek, Roman, and Jewish ideologies.Luke 14:26 is definitely not Julius Caesar, but the Jesus myth of the Gospels do borrow elements of Julius, and Augustus Caesar.

View PostParanoid Android, on 01 November 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

I was simply pointing out the futility in constantly posting a massive Wall of Text (link). Those who are passionate about a conspiracy topic often employ the tactic because they feel that anyone who reads it must agree with the (in their mind) obviousness of the information. Unfortunately what actually happens is that people go cross-eyed and simply skim the material (or else skip the post altogether). Especially when it's repeated over and over through several threads.

This thread is not for the Theists that would run to an apologist video that tells them what they want to hear.Is not for the Atheist that will snub their nose at things unless it's stamped with "peer reviewed", or a work by their favorite celebrity.Is not for those willing to except any connection without checking facts, or glued to one angle.This thread are for those that will put the hypothesis behind it as a maybe, willing to research further, and realise there is many factors involved knowing the full nature at what's at stake.

You should do actual research instead of trying to stifle me with weak arguments.You put on a shell of progressiveness, but I see it cracking.

If you can show me the symbology (not writings) of the ancient Romans using crucifixion as described in the Gospels at around the turn of the common era? I will admit I am wrong, and I will no longer discuss my idea on UM.

Do not show me examples centuries later that are in, or around churches.

This example is too late, and does not say much; http://en.wikipedia....amenos_graffito

Attached Thumbnails

  • imagesCALUKJJX.jpg
  • hohihiuiuhssgyuyguyf.JPG
  • imagesCA7Y766O.jpg
  • imagesCA3QF06T.jpg
  • imagesCAE7XNI8.jpg
  • imagesCANEM892.jpg

Posted Image
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "Mythical Jesus" Dr. Carrier
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=IybD2xzkhtc <-- "Mythical Moses" Dr. Price (starts@10:20)
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <-- Science Behind Irrational Beliefs
Inanna the Goddess of love was crucified, then after 3 days/nights was resurrected. An over 3,000 yo Tablet saying this is proof of it's truth. Praise Jesus Serotonin Christ!

#23    davros of skaro

davros of skaro

    The Holy Dopamine Ghost

  • Member
  • 5,367 posts
  • Joined:08 Sep 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Skaro

  • Watching the Star Wars The Force Awakens trailers: I get Goosebumps, and I feel waves of emotions. This is proof that "The Force" is real. :D

Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:27 PM

View PostDash--, on 01 November 2013 - 02:58 PM, said:

Hi P.A.
Not the Seotonius quote,But concerning The Letter to Servanius:
From Hadrian Augustus to Servianus the consul, greeting. The land of Egypt, the praises of which you have been recounting to me, my dear Servianus, I have found to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumour. There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis. There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer. Even the Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Christ. [The letter continues on to non-religious matters.]
From the Historia Augusta.Roughly dated to the 4th century http://en.wikipedia....ki/Talk:Serapis

Glanwill W. Bowersock, in a proceeding volume of the Genevan conference on the Historiae Augusae gives a scholastic survey of the dating of the texts.  He writes:

“The presence of fiction in the Historia Augusta is by now an established fact.  The mischievous author of this work pretended, as we all know, to be writing historical biographies; but this pretense, though compelling the inclusion of genuine historical material, imposed no perceptible limits on his wit and invention.”


Günter Stemberger (PhD Jewish studies, Innsbruck and Göttingen), commenting on the Serapis letter confirms, “We should hardly assume the existence of an actual event on which these remarks were based.”

http://benstanhope.b...pot.com/2013/03


For more info http://en.wikipedia....ugustan_History


Hope it helps :tu:


Awesome.I did not know that Hadrian's letter to Servianus was part of the collection called "Augustan History", and that it's authenticity is in dispute.However Chirist Greek for Kristos (anointed, or wetted with oil) is not exclusive to Jesus Christ, and there were a multitude of cults going back to antiquity.

I know P.A. is limited by phone bandwith, but you might be interested in the challenge I offered him for it's open to anybody.

Posted Image
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "Mythical Jesus" Dr. Carrier
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=IybD2xzkhtc <-- "Mythical Moses" Dr. Price (starts@10:20)
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <-- Science Behind Irrational Beliefs
Inanna the Goddess of love was crucified, then after 3 days/nights was resurrected. An over 3,000 yo Tablet saying this is proof of it's truth. Praise Jesus Serotonin Christ!

#24    Paranoid Android

Paranoid Android

    ????????

  • 28,287 posts
  • Joined:17 Apr 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NSW Mid-North Coast

  • Paranoid Android... *whaa--*

Posted 02 November 2013 - 01:18 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 01 November 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:



http://penelope.uchi...Vespasian*.html

Chapter 7

2 Vespasian as yet lacked prestige and a certain divinity, so to speak, since he was an unexpected and still new-made emperor; but these also were given him. A man of the people who was blind, and another who was lame, came to him together as he sat on the tribunal, begging for the help for their disorders which Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them, and give strength to the leg, if he would deign to touch it with his heel. 3 Though he had hardly any faith that this could possibly succeed, and therefore shrank even from making the attempt, he was at last prevailed upon by his friends and tried both things in public before a large crowd; and with success. At this same time, by the direction of certain soothsayers, some vases of antique workmanship were dug up in a consecrated spot at Tegea in Arcadia and on them was an image very like Vespasian.

^ Is this good enough?
Wait, I just checked the date - 150 AD, or near enough. You've repeatedly argued the gospel dates as 65-100 AD, why does this source written 50+ years later deserve greater significance than a text written decades earlier.


Quote

was wrong for Jesus did not display affinity for the masses, or atleast when Gentiles were concerned when he was asked for help by a Greek born women.He shows favor for the people of Isreal saying "First let the children eat all they want", then calling others dogs "for it is not right to take the childrens bread, and toss it to their dogs."Then when the Greek women shown faith (putting it lightly) he helped her then "Yes my Lord she replied, but even the dogs under the table eat the childrens crumbs."

Mark 7:24-7:30  Matthew 15:21-15:28 (See both passage verses to see full context.)

I am not saying Jesus copied from Julius Caesar, but Jesus is a later literary invention that is drawn from Greek, Roman, and Jewish ideologies.Luke 14:26 is definitely not Julius Caesar, but the Jesus myth of the Gospels do borrow elements of Julius, and Augustus Caesar.
Then it appears the significance of this passage went over your head - Jesus was not saying Gentiles were "dogs".

But as an aside, you stated once before that both Jesus and Caesar had an affinity for the masses and therefore shows proof of collusion. Shouldn't the reverse be equally true? If Jesus did NOT display similar signs here, it therefore proves that Jesus was not a copycat.

Unless you want to move the goal posts!


Quote

This thread is not for the Theists that would run to an apologist video that tells them what they want to hear.Is not for the Atheist that will snub their nose at things unless it's stamped with "peer reviewed", or a work by their favorite celebrity.Is not for those willing to except any connection without checking facts, or glued to one angle.This thread are for those that will put the hypothesis behind it as a maybe, willing to research further, and realise there is many factors involved knowing the full nature at what's at stake.

You should do actual research instead of trying to stifle me with weak arguments.You put on a shell of progressiveness, but I see it cracking.

If you can show me the symbology (not writings) of the ancient Romans using crucifixion as described in the Gospels at around the turn of the common era? I will admit I am wrong, and I will no longer discuss my idea on UM.

Do not show me examples centuries later that are in, or around churches.

This example is too late, and does not say much; http://en.wikipedia....amenos_graffito
Ah, so those who read your post and agree have searched the truth. Those who disagree are among the Theist/Atheist bundle you put forward before.

Not really that surprising...

Edited by Paranoid Android, 02 November 2013 - 01:20 PM.

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#25    Labyrinthus

Labyrinthus

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 115 posts
  • Joined:13 Oct 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA

  • "Through the study of books one seeks God; by meditation one finds him"

Posted 02 November 2013 - 04:22 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 31 October 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

The earliest known reference to the gospels is from Ireneaus' "Against Heresies" Book III, written about 186AD; although, there is a reference in Book I (c. 183 AD) to Matthew that probably refers to what we now call the Gospel of Matthew.  Theophilus of Antioch mentioned the Book of John shortly before his death in 180 AD.

This is a little misleading. Iraneaus' reference was the first to reference all 4 canonical gospels together in that context, but other references to single books are dated to much earlier periods.
Honest scholarship dates the first Gospel to 50-55AD. Some push it out to 75AD but it has been argued that the lack of any reference to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD indicates the writing predates that event... and this is reasonable speculation, imo.

The early dating of the Muratorian fragment indicates most of the NT was already worked out and settled before 200AD.

These efforts to connect the NT books to some Roman fiction are really half baked. The history connecting the gospel narratives to Greek Mystery cults dating to 500BC time frames is better supported. If anything the Roman similarities were copycat claims made after the fact (of the Life of Jesus).

Edited by Labyrinthus, 02 November 2013 - 04:39 PM.


#26    davros of skaro

davros of skaro

    The Holy Dopamine Ghost

  • Member
  • 5,367 posts
  • Joined:08 Sep 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Skaro

  • Watching the Star Wars The Force Awakens trailers: I get Goosebumps, and I feel waves of emotions. This is proof that "The Force" is real. :D

Posted 02 November 2013 - 06:40 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 02 November 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

Wait, I just checked the date - 150 AD, or near enough. You've repeatedly argued the gospel dates as 65-100 AD, why does this source written 50+ years later deserve greater significance than a text written decades earlier.

Just take note the passage timeframe written about is around the time the first gospel was written.Suetonius was writing histories
of Roman leaders, and was not trying to prop up one man as the Son of God with connecting prophecies.


View PostParanoid Android, on 02 November 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:



Then it appears the significance of this passage went over your head - Jesus was not saying Gentiles were "dogs".

Mark 7:24-7:30, and Matthew 15:21-15:28 sure looks that way to me.Roman citizens thought they were the peak of civilization, and the Jewish thought they were God's chosen people (still do.)



View PostParanoid Android, on 02 November 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:


But as an aside, you stated once before that both Jesus and Caesar had an affinity for the masses and therefore shows proof of collusion. Shouldn't the reverse be equally true? If Jesus did NOT display similar signs here, it therefore proves that Jesus was not a copycat.

Unless you want to move the goal posts!

Jesus did not copy anything for he is fiction.The unknown writers/forgers pulled many elements of theology, and philosophy of antiquity to make Philos/Pauls Logos into an Earthly deity.

Here is Caesar writing in the 3rd person, and it kind of sounds like the gathering of people where ever Jesus went to me.

http://mcadams.posc....aesarGal08.html

(8.51)Caesar, on his arrival, was received by the principal towns and colonies with incredible respect and affection; for this was the first time he came since the war against united Gaul. Nothing was omitted which could be thought of for the ornament of the gates, roads, and every place through which Caesar was to pass. All the people with their children went out to meet him. Sacrifices were offered up in every quarter. The market places and temples were laid out with entertainments, as if anticipating the joy of a most splendid triumph. So great was the magnificence of the richer and zeal of the poorer ranks of the people.

If only Jesus written things down, we would not be having this conversation.


View PostParanoid Android, on 02 November 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:


Ah, so those who read your post and agree have searched the truth. Those who disagree are among the Theist/Atheist bundle you put forward before.

Not really that surprising...

When I was 8 the theology of Jesus Christ smelled of rotten fish to me.For decades I thought he was an historical person, but now I know he is made up.I can understand people thinking he is historical for he's so ingrained into society, but buying into dying for our sins is childish fantasy.

Posted Image
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "Mythical Jesus" Dr. Carrier
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=IybD2xzkhtc <-- "Mythical Moses" Dr. Price (starts@10:20)
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <-- Science Behind Irrational Beliefs
Inanna the Goddess of love was crucified, then after 3 days/nights was resurrected. An over 3,000 yo Tablet saying this is proof of it's truth. Praise Jesus Serotonin Christ!

#27    davros of skaro

davros of skaro

    The Holy Dopamine Ghost

  • Member
  • 5,367 posts
  • Joined:08 Sep 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Skaro

  • Watching the Star Wars The Force Awakens trailers: I get Goosebumps, and I feel waves of emotions. This is proof that "The Force" is real. :D

Posted 02 November 2013 - 06:44 PM

View PostLabyrinthus, on 02 November 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

This is a little misleading. Iraneaus' reference was the first to reference all 4 canonical gospels together in that context, but other references to single books are dated to much earlier periods.
Honest scholarship dates the first Gospel to 50-55AD. Some push it out to 75AD but it has been argued that the lack of any reference to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD indicates the writing predates that event... and this is reasonable speculation, imo.

The early dating of the Muratorian fragment indicates most of the NT was already worked out and settled before 200AD.

These efforts to connect the NT books to some Roman fiction are really half baked. The history connecting the gospel narratives to Greek Mystery cults dating to 500BC time frames is better supported. If anything the Roman similarities were copycat claims made after the fact (of the Life of Jesus).


"Hey! What's a stigmata you?!"...Padre Pio

Posted Image
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "Mythical Jesus" Dr. Carrier
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=IybD2xzkhtc <-- "Mythical Moses" Dr. Price (starts@10:20)
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <-- Science Behind Irrational Beliefs
Inanna the Goddess of love was crucified, then after 3 days/nights was resurrected. An over 3,000 yo Tablet saying this is proof of it's truth. Praise Jesus Serotonin Christ!

#28    Dash--

Dash--

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 182 posts
  • Joined:13 May 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Around

Posted 02 November 2013 - 07:35 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 01 November 2013 - 10:27 PM, said:

Awesome.I did not know that Hadrian's letter to Servianus was part of the collection called "Augustan History", and that it's authenticity is in dispute.However Chirist Greek for Kristos (anointed, or wetted with oil) is not exclusive to Jesus Christ, and there were a multitude of cults going back to antiquity.

I know P.A. is limited by phone bandwith, but you might be interested in the challenge I offered him for it's open to anybody.

If you can show me the symbology (not writings) of the ancient Romans using crucifixion as described in the Gospels at around the turn of the common era?


Not interested in a "challenge",only civil discussion.I enjoy your posts,so to win would be to lose. :w00t: Thanks anyway.
Though,I am curious as to what evidence fits your criteria?

Posted Image
The practice of crucifixion in antiquity was brought to life as never before when the heel bones of a young man named Yehohanan were found in a Jerusalem tomb, pierced by an iron nail. The discovery shed new light on Roman crucifixion methods and began to rewrite the history of crucifixion in antiquity. Photo: ©Erich Lessing
http://www.biblicala...fixion-methods/

Posted ImagePosted Image
Of high interest because of the very exceptional cases, it appears the representation of a Roman crucifixion found recently in a graffiti of a taberna of Pozzuoli, located in the vicinity of the amphitheater.
http://www.infotdgeo...ne/pozzuoli.php  (The page is in Italian)

Posted Image

“IN CRVCE FIGARVS” Graffito in the Stabian Baths
in Pompeii (CIL IV, § 2082 and Table VI § 3)

2.
http://ifpeakoilwere...acuta-crux.html (Recently found this site.Very detailed.)

Any of this relevant to what you're looking for,Davros?

We live in a sunlit world of what we believe to be reality,but...

#29    Paranoid Android

Paranoid Android

    ????????

  • 28,287 posts
  • Joined:17 Apr 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:NSW Mid-North Coast

  • Paranoid Android... *whaa--*

Posted 03 November 2013 - 12:13 AM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 02 November 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:



Just take note the passage timeframe written about is around the time the first gospel was written.Suetonius was writing histories
of Roman leaders, and was not trying to prop up one man as the Son of God with connecting prophecies.
Perhaps I wasn't clear in my point. Consider:

Mark 65-70 CE
Matthew 75-80 CE
Luke 75-90 CE
John 85-100? CE

The Lives of Twelve Caesars 121 AD

Considering the dating, isn't it more likely that if one did copy the other then the sources used by Suetonius borrowed from the gospels, rather then the gospels borrowing from something not written up to 56 years later?


Quote

Mark 7:24-7:30, and Matthew 15:21-15:28 sure looks that way to me.Roman citizens thought they were the peak of civilization, and the Jewish thought they were God's chosen people (still do.)
Jesus was emphasising his earthly mission, and in fact praises the Greek women for her faith.


Quote


Jesus did not copy anything for he is fiction.The unknown writers/forgers pulled many elements of theology, and philosophy of antiquity to make Philos/Pauls Logos into an Earthly deity.

Here is Caesar writing in the 3rd person, and it kind of sounds like the gathering of people where ever Jesus went to me.

http://mcadams.posc....aesarGal08.html

(8.51)Caesar, on his arrival, was received by the principal towns and colonies with incredible respect and affection; for this was the first time he came since the war against united Gaul. Nothing was omitted which could be thought of for the ornament of the gates, roads, and every place through which Caesar was to pass. All the people with their children went out to meet him. Sacrifices were offered up in every quarter. The market places and temples were laid out with entertainments, as if anticipating the joy of a most splendid triumph. So great was the magnificence of the richer and zeal of the poorer ranks of the people.

If only Jesus written things down, we would not be having this conversation.
Jesus' mission was a grassroots movement for the masses. It would have been counterproductive to waste his time writing stuff down that could only be read by the 5% intellectual elite who could read at the time.


Quote

When I was 8 the theology of Jesus Christ smelled of rotten fish to me.For decades I thought he was an historical person, but now I know he is made up.I can understand people thinking he is historical for he's so ingrained into society, but buying into dying for our sins is childish fantasy.
I didn't grow up in a Christian household and didn't hear of Jesus until I was 12 years old. Seven years later, as a 19-year old studying at university I turned and accepted him as my saviour. It made sense to me and I've not had reason to regret that decision in the last 14 years (I'm 33 now).

You don't accept an historical Jesus, but virtually all historians disagree with you on it. You can side with the scholarly minority if you wish, that's up to you. I'll stick with the consensus in this matter.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 03 November 2013 - 02:02 AM.

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#30    davros of skaro

davros of skaro

    The Holy Dopamine Ghost

  • Member
  • 5,367 posts
  • Joined:08 Sep 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Skaro

  • Watching the Star Wars The Force Awakens trailers: I get Goosebumps, and I feel waves of emotions. This is proof that "The Force" is real. :D

Posted 04 November 2013 - 02:26 AM

View PostDash--, on 02 November 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

If you can show me the symbology (not writings) of the ancient Romans using crucifixion as described in the Gospels at around the turn of the common era?


Not interested in a "challenge",only civil discussion.I enjoy your posts,so to win would be to lose. :w00t: Thanks anyway.
Though,I am curious as to what evidence fits your criteria?

Posted Image
The practice of crucifixion in antiquity was brought to life as never before when the heel bones of a young man named Yehohanan were found in a Jerusalem tomb, pierced by an iron nail. The discovery shed new light on Roman crucifixion methods and began to rewrite the history of crucifixion in antiquity. Photo: ©Erich Lessing
http://www.biblicala...fixion-methods/

Posted ImagePosted Image
Of high interest because of the very exceptional cases, it appears the representation of a Roman crucifixion found recently in a graffiti of a taberna of Pozzuoli, located in the vicinity of the amphitheater.
http://www.infotdgeo...ne/pozzuoli.php  (The page is in Italian)

Posted Image


“IN CRVCE FIGARVS” Graffito in the Stabian Baths
in Pompeii (CIL IV, &sect; 2082 and Table VI &sect; 3)

2.
http://ifpeakoilwere...acuta-crux.html (Recently found this site.Very detailed.)

Any of this relevant to what you're looking for,Davros?

Ok....Enjoy the ride.

The nail in the shin bone from 1968 is the only physical evidence (Human remains) provided for crucifixion by the ancient Romans that I know of.In pic 1 & 2 it is clear to me from the bent tip compared to the full foot reconstruction it's too short to fasten it to something.In pic 3 this guy thinks he found cruci nails, but I find bent nails all the time metal detecting from square nails (colonial) to modern.Helena the mother of Constantine found not only the cross of Jesus (identified by healing a dying women), but she found the nails too. :innocent:

I do not what to think of the Pozzuoli graffito.I thought it was a flying squirrel on a stick at first.It is a man, but why is the crossbeam more like a string,or rope unlike the vertical pole.I do not doubt Romans crucified people (noncitizens) for it's part of the "Twelve Laws", but I personaly doubt it's as described in the Bible.If this man is being crucified?Does he have a pole up his rectum, and grabbing a rope to ease his pain?The pic is inconclusive, and I am looking for a more definitive example in pic 4 (triumphal relief of Emperor Trajan with impaled heads.)

Pompeii is an ideal place to look for clues, because the time capsule nature of the place.Anyone going there
has a chance to look for symbology most tourists will overlook.The play on words of the graffiti texts is interesting, but I have looked myself into the texts, and I find no concrete answer due to several factors including my own linguistic limitations.

According to Franseco Carotta;Crucify replaced the homophones translation of Latin "cremo" cremate,Greek kremo "to hang"(impale).For example Caesar was cremated (cremo),and a wax effigy was hanged (kremo) on a Tropaion.

Is Crucifixion by the ancient Romans impalement like Vlad Tepes the Impaler thru the rectum, or head on a pike?Did they hang people with the arms outstretched to impair breathing? Did they nail people to a cross as outlined in the NT?

Is the passage of Tacitus Annals (15.44) accurate about nailing to crosses? Or did a later scribe change this to better match his faith?

http://mcadams.posc....usannals15.html

Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Christianity has been an institution of power for a very long time.I see evidence that the cross symbol has been a divine symbol prior to Christian influence, and I do not see such a symbol used as described in the NT.

The rest of the pics are of personified Goddeses (cross earings) of Venus, Fides (fidelity virtue), Pietas (piety virtue), and some have sacred Tropaions which was reserved for Victoria (prisoners reserved for the base of the trophy.)

Attached Thumbnails

  • crjkji.JPG
  • crkljhj.jpg
  • crkjhkj.JPG
  • crjhihjggh.JPG
  • 419703.jpg
  • fides.jpg
  • fidesjk.jpg
  • pietas.jpg
  • trjklkhjk.jpg
  • trkjkhj.jpg
  • trkjkj.jpg

Posted Image
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "Mythical Jesus" Dr. Carrier
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=IybD2xzkhtc <-- "Mythical Moses" Dr. Price (starts@10:20)
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <-- Science Behind Irrational Beliefs
Inanna the Goddess of love was crucified, then after 3 days/nights was resurrected. An over 3,000 yo Tablet saying this is proof of it's truth. Praise Jesus Serotonin Christ!




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users