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Son of God Divi Filius Augustus Caesar


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#31    davros of skaro

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  • ", because in most cases men willingly believe what they wish."-Julius Caesar 'De Bello Gallico, Book III, Ch. 18'

Posted 04 November 2013 - 03:50 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 03 November 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my point. Consider:
Mark 65-70 CE
Matthew 75-80 CE
Luke 75-90 CE
John 85-100? CE
The Lives of Twelve Caesars 121 AD
Considering the dating, isn't it more likely that if one did copy the other then the
sources used by Suetonius borrowed from the gospels, rather then the gospels borrowing
from something not written up to 56 years later?
Who knows where Suetonius information came from? Go spit in a blind person's eyes, and
see if you can do miracles like Jesus, and Vespasian. LOL!

View PostParanoid Android, on 03 November 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

Jesus was emphasising his earthly mission, and in fact praises the Greek women for her
faith.
Yes, obedience that is praise worthy for a dog, or a horse is a trait for Christianity.

View PostParanoid Android, on 03 November 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

Jesus' mission was a grassroots movement for the masses. It would have been
counterproductive to waste his time writing stuff down that could only be read by the 5%
intellectual elite who could read at the time.
David Koresh was a grassroots movement in Waco Texas.Yes it was a waste of time to write
things down, because end time was just around the corner (enjoy the wait.)Good thing the
literacy rate worldwide has increased.

View PostParanoid Android, on 03 November 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

I didn't grow up in a Christian household and didn't hear of Jesus until I was 12 years
old. Seven years later, as a 19-year old studying at university I turned and accepted him
as my saviour. It made sense to me and I've not had reason to regret that decision in the
last 14 years (I'm 33 now).
I didn't grow up in a Christian household either, but having the same Bible since 1984
has reaffirmed how ridiculous it is.

View PostParanoid Android, on 03 November 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

You don't accept an historical Jesus, but virtually all historians disagree with you on
it. You can side with the scholarly minority if you wish, that's up to you. I'll stick
with the consensus in this matter.
Look at secular historians on how the Gospels fail on historical accuracy.

Pics 1-4 shows the daggers that are set in loops over the cross on the pope's robe.
Pic 5 is Caesar being attacked by daggers.
pics 6-7 Seashell on Pope's robes, and Vatican artwork.
Pic 8 Goddess Aphrodite of ancient Greece born of Seafoam riding on a seashell.The Romans transformed Aphrodite to the Goddess Venus which is Caesar's celestial mother.
Pic 9 Coin of Caesar with Elephant stepping on a Serpent (did Caesar escape original sin?) with vestments (Flamen Dialis) of the priest for Jupiter (highest God of Rome) on obsverse.

Edit;pics gotten a little mixed number wise, but easily discerned.

Attached Files


Edited by davros of skaro, 04 November 2013 - 03:57 AM.

Posted Image
Leviticus 14 2 Peter 1:16
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MzrIHdN9O7M <-- "Ten Lies About Jesus"
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "The Mythical Jesus"
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <--Science of belief

#32    Paranoid Android

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 05:24 AM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 04 November 2013 - 03:50 AM, said:


Who knows where Suetonius information came from? Go spit in a blind person's eyes, and
see if you can do miracles like Jesus, and Vespasian. LOL!
So let me see if I have this straight. You quoted Suetonius as evidence that people copied events such as this and incorporated it into the Jesus myth. Now when quizzed add to where Suetonius got his information you have no idea. And since the gospels were in circulation by the time Suetonius wrote this text you cannot rule it out as the source. And the best response you can give is "who knows where Suetonius got his information from". Why not use the same response for the story of Jesus spitting in a person's eyes - "who knows where the gospel writer got his information from".

Sounds like double standards :whistle:


Quote

Yes, obedience that is praise worthy for a dog, or a horse is a trait for Christianity.
Faith is what Jesus praised the woman for, not obedience.


Quote

David Koresh was a grassroots movement in Waco Texas.Yes it was a waste of time to write
things down, because end time was just around the corner (enjoy the wait.)Good thing the
literacy rate worldwide has increased.
I smell a Red Herring.


Quote

I didn't grow up in a Christian household either, but having the same Bible since 1984
has reaffirmed how ridiculous it is.
I get you don't believe it. I'm not demanding you do. I was just pointing out that it made sense to me, and still does today.


Quote

Look at secular historians on how the Gospels fail on historical accuracy.

Pics 1-4 shows the daggers that are set in loops over the cross on the pope's robe.
Pic 5 is Caesar being attacked by daggers.
pics 6-7 Seashell on Pope's robes, and Vatican artwork.
Pic 8 Goddess Aphrodite of ancient Greece born of Seafoam riding on a seashell.The Romans transformed Aphrodite to the Goddess Venus which is Caesar's celestial mother.
Pic 9 Coin of Caesar with Elephant stepping on a Serpent (did Caesar escape original sin?) with vestments (Flamen Dialis) of the priest for Jupiter (highest God of Rome) on obsverse.

Edit;pics gotten a little mixed number wise, but easily discerned.
I loved the Wizard of Oz, but that doesn't mean I want to deal with Straw Men in online discussion. What secular historians think of the historicity of the gospels is irrelevant as to whether they accept an historical Jesus.

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#33    davros of skaro

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 06:04 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 04 November 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

So let me see if I have this straight. You quoted Suetonius as evidence that people copied events such as this and incorporated it into the Jesus myth. Now when quizzed add to where Suetonius got his information you have no idea. And since the gospels were in circulation by the time Suetonius wrote this text you cannot rule it out as the source. And the best response you can give is "who knows where Suetonius got his information from". Why not use the same response for the story of Jesus spitting in a person's eyes - "who knows where the gospel writer got his information from".

Sounds like double standards :whistle:

You know historians from antiquity rarely cited sources.Atleast it's known who Suetonius was, and an institution did not slap a name on his work.

View PostParanoid Android, on 04 November 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:


Faith is what Jesus praised the woman for, not obedience.


To instill obedience on the reader.


View PostParanoid Android, on 04 November 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:


I smell a Red Herring.


Revelation 22:7

View PostParanoid Android, on 04 November 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:



I get you don't believe it. I'm not demanding you do. I was just pointing out that it made sense to me, and still does today.


John 3:16

View PostParanoid Android, on 04 November 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:



I loved the Wizard of Oz, but that doesn't mean I want to deal with Straw Men in online discussion. What secular historians think of the historicity of the gospels is irrelevant as to whether they accept an historical Jesus.

Behind closed doors is a different story, but I cannot prove that no more than you can prove an historical Jesus.

Posted Image
Leviticus 14 2 Peter 1:16
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MzrIHdN9O7M <-- "Ten Lies About Jesus"
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "The Mythical Jesus"
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <--Science of belief

#34    Paranoid Android

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 12:52 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 04 November 2013 - 06:04 AM, said:



You know historians from antiquity rarely cited sources.Atleast it's known who Suetonius was, and an institution did not slap a name on his work.
You've still failed to support your view that the Jesus-myth was copied from Suetonius.


Quote

To instill obedience on the reader.
Or to instil Faith in the reader?


Quote

Revelation 22:7



John 3:16
I'm still not forcing you to believe what I believe, so what the Bible says is just that - what the Bible says; you don't have to agree with it.


Quote

Behind closed doors is a different story, but I cannot prove that no more than you can prove an historical Jesus.
I disagree, when even secular historians agree that there was an historical figure named Jesus who began the Christian movement, the obvious truth is that such a figure did indeed exist. Perhaps stories about his supernatural powers were exaggerated and added in, perhaps oral tradition affected various stories. I've said it before, and now again - I willingly accept the New Testament on Faith. What I don't take on Faith is the existence of Jesus, this is as close to historical fact as anything from ancient history.

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#35    Dash--

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 07:57 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 04 November 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

Ok....Enjoy the ride.

The nail in the shin bone from 1968 is the only physical evidence (Human remains) provided for crucifixion by the ancient Romans that I know of.In pic 1 & 2 it is clear to me from the bent tip compared to the full foot reconstruction it's too short to fasten it to something
Did you read the link I gave? I admit,I sometimes glance over links when i'm in a rush.

This is an excerpt from the archaeologist article.
-The most dramatic evidence that this young man was crucified was the nail which penetrated his heel bones. But for this nail, we might never have discovered that the young man had died in this way. The nail was preserved only because it hit a hard knot when it was pounded into the olive wood upright of the cross. The olive wood knot was so hard that, as the blows on the nail became heavier, the end of the nail bent and curled. We found a bit of the olive wood (between 1 and 2 cm) on the tip of the nail. This wood had probably been forced out of the knot where the curled nail hooked into it.
-From the way in which the bones were attached, we can infer the man’s position on the cross. The two heel bones were attached on their adjacent inside (medial) surfaces. The nail went through the right heel bone and then the left. Since the same nail went through both heels, the legs were together, not apart, on the cross.http://www.biblicala...fixion-methods/

Being that neither of us have the remains to examine for ourself,I find it hard to go against the grain of a man that has.
Born on the Isle of Samos, in Greece, Vassilios Tzaferis received a Ph.D. from Hebrew University in Jerusalem. He has directed many excavations, including those at Ashkelon, Tiberius, Beth Shean, Capernaum and at various locations in Jerusalem.


View Postdavros of skaro, on 04 November 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

.In pic 3 this guy thinks he found cruci nails, but I find bent nails all the time metal detecting from square nails (colonial) to modern.Helena the mother of Constantine found not only the cross of Jesus (identified by healing a dying women), but she found the nails too. :innocent:
Not sure what you're referring to.Pic 3 on my computer shows an illustrated rendering of the Pozzuoli graffiti.

View Postdavros of skaro, on 04 November 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

It is a man, but why is the crossbeam more like a string,or rope unlike the vertical pole.
Maybe lack of artistic skills? I can certainly relate.(especially in stone)

View Postdavros of skaro, on 04 November 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

I do not doubt Romans crucified people (noncitizens) for it's part of the "Twelve Laws", but I personaly doubt it's as described in the Bible.
Curious,but why do you doubt it? It doesn't seem like a huge leap to get from archaeological evidence and descriptions depicted to what is described in the Gospels.

View Postdavros of skaro, on 04 November 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

If this man is being crucified?Does he have a pole up his rectum, and grabbing a rope to ease his pain?
He very well may have.As I assume you already know it wasn't unheard of.Though,if you're implying this might have happened to Jesus,it could have.If it did occur,I,for one,understand and appreciate the writers omission of that detail.
But as for the rope:
No detectable ropes or rings. http://www.infotdgeo...ne/pozzuoli.php

View Postdavros of skaro, on 04 November 2013 - 02:26 AM, said:

Is Crucifixion by the ancient Romans impalement like Vlad Tepes the Impaler thru the rectum, or head on a pike?Did they hang people with the arms outstretched to impair breathing? Did they nail people to a cross as outlined in the NT?

Is the passage of Tacitus Annals (15.44) accurate about nailing to crosses? Or did a later scribe change this to better match his faith?

I would say yes to all of the above,or at least the possibilities.Roman crucifixion methods varied.To what extent would only be a guess.

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#36    Doug1o29

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 10:28 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 03 November 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my point. Consider:

Mark 65-70 CE
Matthew 75-80 CE
Luke 75-90 CE
John 85-100? CE

The Lives of Twelve Caesars 121 AD

Considering the dating, isn't it more likely that if one did copy the other then the sources used by Suetonius borrowed from the gospels, rather then the gospels borrowing from something not written up to 56 years later?
All these dates have been challenged by established scholars.  It is entirely possible that the gospels were ALL written after The Twelve Caesars.  Sorry, PA, but all you've posted is speculation.  At least read Walter Cassells' study ("Supernatural Religion") on the development of the gospels before you go jumping to conclusions.  It's a carefully researched study and well worth the time it takes to read it.

Another consideration:  The four writings we call the gospels are re-hashes of previous writings.  SOME of those earlier writings date from the 60s (AD) or even earlier, so it is entirely reasonable for references to events in the 40s through 60s to be in them.  What is not reasonable is for references to events that happened in the 130s and 150s to be in books written in the 60s.
Doug

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#37    Paranoid Android

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 10:49 PM

Yes Doug, I know you believe the gospels are products of 2nd century authorship. We've discussed it several times. For whatever reason, mainstream scholarship (not apologetics, but including non-Christians also) dates the gospels in the 1st century (latest gospel, John, circa 90-120 AD).

As with most scholarly consensus I tend to take the majority view myself (with rare exceptions, and I happily admit I am taking a minority view with those things).

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#38    davros of skaro

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 01:32 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 04 November 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

You've still failed to support your view that the Jesus-myth was copied from Suetonius.

I am just pointing out that Mark 8:23, and the passage in Suetonius life of Vespasian is
a strange coincidence.Though Suetonius writes about it decades later, the passage of Mark
was written around the same time period of Vespasian's supposed act.What a strange
uncommon thing to spit in someone's eyes.

View PostParanoid Android, on 04 November 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

Or to instil Faith in the reader?
I see racism, and you see the miracle of Jesus.Some people say it does not matter if
Jesus existed, or not, and that his message is what's important.The thing is that his
main message is to have faith in him.

View PostParanoid Android, on 04 November 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

I'm still not forcing you to believe what I believe, so what the Bible says is just that
- what the Bible says; you don't have to agree with it.
I do not find you preaching to me, nor do I accuse you of it.Have you read the entire
Bible cover to cover?Not at one time of course.

View PostParanoid Android, on 04 November 2013 - 12:52 PM, said:

I disagree, when even secular historians agree that there was an historical figure named
Jesus who began the Christian movement, the obvious truth is that such a figure did
indeed exist. Perhaps stories about his supernatural powers were exaggerated and added
in, perhaps oral tradition affected various stories. I've said it before, and now again -
I willingly accept the New Testament on Faith. What I don't take on Faith is the
existence of Jesus, this is as close to historical fact as anything from ancient history.
I see weak arguments for existence.We might as well except that the mythical founder of
Rome existed.Romulus was born of a Vestal virging thru the God Mars, there was a strong
oral tradition of his death, and resurrection inwhich the ancient Romans performed
passion plays for.I know for myself several things that are true that the majority of the proffesional institutions would say are false, but I cannot prove it.

Why does the Pope wear red shoes like the early Roman kings?

http://en.wikipedia....i/Roman_Kingdom (see monarchy)

The insignia of the kings of Rome were twelve lictors wielding the fasces bearing axes,
the right to sit upon a Curule chair, the purple Toga Picta, red shoes, and a white
diadem around the head. Of all these insignia, the most important was the purple toga.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Papal_shoes

Caesar was accused of trying to be king.

http://penelope.uchi...rs/Julius*.html

79 2 But from that time on he could not rid himself of the odium of having aspired to the
title of monarch, although he replied to the commons, when they hailed him as king, "I am
Caesar and no king," and at the Lupercalia, when the consul Antony several times
attempted to place a crown upon his head as he spoke from the rostra, he put it aside and
at last sent it to the Capitol, to be offered to Jupiter Optimus Maximus.

John 19:15 "We have no King but Caesar" the chief priests replied.

For those that like videos, and interviews below.



Interview starts @ 19:08.Dr. Carrier talks about his book "Proving History", how modern
Jesus studies is flawed, and Bayes theorim.


Attached Files


Posted Image
Leviticus 14 2 Peter 1:16
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MzrIHdN9O7M <-- "Ten Lies About Jesus"
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "The Mythical Jesus"
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <--Science of belief

#39    davros of skaro

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:05 AM

View PostDash--, on 05 November 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Did you read the link I gave? I admit,I sometimes glance over links when i'm in a rush.


I do not care what that guy says, because one does not have to be a crime scene investigator to see that nail is too short )see my pics.)

A State Park near me was what used to be farmsteads from the 1700's.In the 1950s workmen moved a large boulder, and underneath
was skeleton hands in rusted shackles.People did all sorts of sick punishments thru the ages.

View PostDash--, on 05 November 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Not sure what you're referring to.Pic 3 on my computer shows an illustrated rendering of the Pozzuoli graffiti.

I am talking about my pictures that I posted.


View PostDash--, on 05 November 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

Curious,but why do you doubt it? It doesn't seem like a huge leap to get from archaeological evidence and descriptions depicted to what is described in the Gospels.


Did you see the first video in the first post?


View PostDash--, on 05 November 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

He very well may have.As I assume you already know it wasn't unheard of.Though,if you're implying this might have happened to Jesus,it could have.If it did occur,I,for one,understand and appreciate the writers omission of that detail.
But as for the rope:
No detectable ropes or rings. http://www.infotdgeo...ne/pozzuoli.php


Can you find a picture that covers more area of the wall?

Edited by davros of skaro, 06 November 2013 - 02:06 AM.

Posted Image
Leviticus 14 2 Peter 1:16
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MzrIHdN9O7M <-- "Ten Lies About Jesus"
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "The Mythical Jesus"
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <--Science of belief

#40    Paranoid Android

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 03:10 AM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 06 November 2013 - 01:32 AM, said:


I am just pointing out that Mark 8:23, and the passage in Suetonius life of Vespasian is
a strange coincidence.Though Suetonius writes about it decades later, the passage of Mark
was written around the same time period of Vespasian's supposed act.What a strange
uncommon thing to spit in someone's eyes.
Yet because of the date of the Twelve Caesar's, it simply cannot be proof-positive that Mark used Vespasian for the basis of this myth.


Quote

I see racism, and you see the miracle of Jesus.Some people say it does not matter if
Jesus existed, or not, and that his message is what's important.The thing is that his
main message is to have faith in him.
I disagree with those who don't think it maters if Jesus was real or not, but it's their Right to believe what they like.


Quote

do not find you preaching to me, nor do I accuse you of it.Have you read the entire
Bible cover to cover?Not at one time of course.
I did read the Bible literally cover to cover once (I'm several sittings), early I'm my Christian life but wouldn't recommend it again. I started at Genesis, and by the time I hit Numbers and Deuteronomy my mine was tired with list after list of laws and genealogies. By the time I hit Psalms and Proverbs I was saying to myself "oh look, another song praising God". By the New Testament I'd read four consecutive accounts of Jesus' life. And then book after book of random teachings. In short, it was tiresome and I learned very little.

Since then, of course, I've read every verse of every chapter of every book several times, but not in cover to cover order. It's much easier and intellectually stimulating to read Leviticus, then Luke, then Numbers, then Acts, then Deuteronomy, etc than it is to read Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy back to back.


Quote

I see weak arguments for existence.
Scholars by and large disagree, I tend to take the scholarly majority in this matter.


Quote

might as well except that the mythical founder of
Rome existed.Romulus was born of a Vestal virging thru the God Mars, there was a strong
oral tradition of his death, and resurrection inwhich the ancient Romans performed
passion plays for.I know for myself several things that are true that the majority of the proffesional institutions would say are false, but I cannot prove it.

Why does the Pope wear red shoes like the early Roman kings?

http://en.wikipedia....i/Roman_Kingdom (see monarchy)

The insignia of the kings of Rome were twelve lictors wielding the fasces bearing axes,
the right to sit upon a Curule chair, the purple Toga Picta, red shoes, and a white
diadem around the head. Of all these insignia, the most important was the purple toga.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Papal_shoes

Caesar was accused of trying to be king.

http://penelope.uchi...rs/Julius*.html

79 2 But from that time on he could not rid himself of the odium of having aspired to the
title of monarch, although he replied to the commons, when they hailed him as king, "I am
Caesar and no king," and at the Lupercalia, when the consul Antony several times
attempted to place a crown upon his head as he spoke from the rostra, he put it aside and
at last sent it to the Capitol, to be offered to Jupiter Optimus Maximus.

John 19:15 "We have no King but Caesar" the chief priests replied.

For those that like videos, and interviews below.



Interview starts @ 19:08.Dr. Carrier talks about his book "Proving History", how modern
Jesus studies is flawed, and Bayes theorim.


I wasn't looking for more examples of your theory.

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#41    Heru

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 04:53 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 31 October 2013 - 04:54 PM, said:

Let's see here.  Augustus Caesar (Octavian) ruled from 27 BC to 14 AD.  The biblical Jesus was executed in 33 AD.  The earliest known snippet of text to make it into the gospels is a quotation from Philo written in 41 AD describing the hazing of a mentally-challenged man named Carabbas in which the tormenters placed a purple robe on him and hung a sign around his neck that read "King of the Jews."  Sound familiar?

The earliest known reference to the gospels is from Ireneaus' "Against Heresies" Book III, written about 186AD; although, there is a reference in Book I (c. 183 AD) to Matthew that probably refers to what we now call the Gospel of Matthew.  Theophilus of Antioch mentioned the Book of John shortly before his death in 180 AD.

I can make a circumstantial case for Matthew and Mark having been written between 132 and 135 AD, but there is no actual reference to them from that time.  Whether Luke/Acts was a source for Marcion (excommunicated in 144AD), or whether Marcion was a source for Luke/Acts has never been clearly demonstrated.  One can argue forever whether Justin ("Second Apology"; c. 152 AD) quoted from the gospels or whether the gospel writers quoted Justin, but I note that Justin's sources weren't the modern gospels - Justin tells of the Jordan catching fire as Jesus emerges from it after being baptized.  That story didn't come from the modern versions.

One can also trace the evolution of Jesus' divinity by comparing the dates of ancient writings:  in earlier ones there is no mention of his divinity, but as time passes, stories of his divinity get added.

All things considered, basing the Jesus stories in part on Augustus Caesar fits right into the way things were done in those days.  I agree that there is no solid evidence that this was done, but then again, there is no solid evidence that this wasn't done.
Doug

VI. (36) There was a certain madman named Carabbas, afflicted not with a wild, savage, and dangerous madness (for that comes on in fits without being expected either by the patient or by bystanders), but with an intermittent and more gentle kind; this man spent all this days and nights naked in the roads, minding neither cold nor heat, the sport of idle children and wanton youths; (37) and they, driving the poor wretch as far as the public gymnasium, and setting him up there on high that he might be seen by everybody, flattened out a leaf of papyrus and put it on his head instead of a diadem, and clothed the rest of his body with a common door mat instead of a cloak and instead of a sceptre they put in his hand a small stick of the native papyrus which they found lying by the way side and gave to him; (38) and when, like actors in theatrical spectacles, he had received all the insignia of royal authority, and had been dressed and adorned like a king, the young men bearing sticks on their shoulders stood on each side of him instead of spear-bearers, in imitation of the bodyguards of the king, and then others came up, some as if to salute him, and others making as though they wished to plead their causes before him, and others pretending to wish to consult with him about the affairs of the state. (39) Then from the multitude of those who were standing around there arose a wonderful shout of men calling out Maris; and this is the name by which it is said that they call the kings among the Syrians; for they knew that Agrippa was by birth a Syrian, and also that he was possessed of a great district of Syria of which he was the sovereign; (40) when Flaccus heard, or rather when he saw this, he would have done right if he had apprehended the maniac and put him in prison, that he might not give to those who reviled him any opportunity or excuse for insulting their superiors, and if he had chastised those who dressed him up for having dared both openly and disguisedly, both with words and actions, to insult a king and a friend of Caesar, and one who had been honoured by the Roman senate with imperial authority; but he not only did not punish them, but he did not think fit even to check them, but gave complete license and impunity to all those who designed ill, and who were disposed to show their enmity and spite to the king, pretending not to see what he did see, and not to hear what he did hear.

Doesnt sound like it has anything to do with jesus.


Edited by Heru, 06 November 2013 - 04:53 PM.


#42    davros of skaro

davros of skaro

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 04:53 PM

The Santa factor is what I would call it, is what's running secular scholarship in Jesus
studies today.Just like a parent telling their child the truth about Santa, but telling
them not to discuss this revelation to his, or her classmates (let them find out for
themselves.) Time, and time again I hear from Christians that Jesus is the most
documented person in history, but they have apologists like Eusebius to thank.

"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful
first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2.

Once one does the scrutiny of lifting up the veil on Jesus one will find his origins in;

Platonic philosophy (Greek morals/virtues)

Hellenistic Judaism (i.e. Ascension of Isaiah, and other Messianic tie ins)

Philo's Logos (He may not be the origin of this Archangel mediator for God concept)

Pagan culture (Many Sons of Gods that have a struggle)

Gnosticism (i.e. Jesus tells his disciples that his parables have a deeper meaning)

Jesus is a celestial deity that was never on Earth, but later went thru Euhemerism, and
placed on Earth to bring in more believers.


Remember that consensus does not include Civil War historians for instance, and implies
a small percentage of the total, which are mostly theologians to begin with.


http://www.jesuspuzz...s.net/jhcjp.htm

Posted Image
Leviticus 14 2 Peter 1:16
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MzrIHdN9O7M <-- "Ten Lies About Jesus"
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "The Mythical Jesus"
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <--Science of belief

#43    Heru

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 05:28 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 06 November 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

The Santa factor is what I would call it, is what's running secular scholarship in Jesus
studies today.Just like a parent telling their child the truth about Santa, but telling
them not to discuss this revelation to his, or her classmates (let them find out for
themselves.) Time, and time again I hear from Christians that Jesus is the most
documented person in history, but they have apologists like Eusebius to thank.

"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful
first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2.

Once one does the scrutiny of lifting up the veil on Jesus one will find his origins in;

Platonic philosophy (Greek morals/virtues)

Hellenistic Judaism (i.e. Ascension of Isaiah, and other Messianic tie ins)

Philo's Logos (He may not be the origin of this Archangel mediator for God concept)

Pagan culture (Many Sons of Gods that have a struggle)

Gnosticism (i.e. Jesus tells his disciples that his parables have a deeper meaning)

Jesus is a celestial deity that was never on Earth, but later went thru Euhemerism, and
placed on Earth to bring in more believers.


Remember that consensus does not include Civil War historians for instance, and implies
a small percentage of the total, which are mostly theologians to begin with.


http://www.jesuspuzz...s.net/jhcjp.htm

Jesus Stories =  The Hanged Man XII

Christianity wasn't for the masses (actually it was the teachings from the Isiyim /*Essenes*/ one of the three main schools of Judaism), no spiritual teaching is ,nor was it back in the day of antiquity, meant for everyone. Until a certain psycho named Saul ... I mean Paul. Said it was for everyone and blah blah blah. Not hard to pass along to a large mass of people that were living like 5h*t and desperate for any means of hope.

No reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.  The problem isn't that there is no pearl to be found within the christian's texts but you and many others should not have access to it. Look how the initiation ritual was turned into some ultimate salvation to save gods special unique snowflake. Which is the total opposite of the ritual.


#44    davros of skaro

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 08:25 PM

View PostHeru, on 06 November 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

Jesus Stories =  The Hanged Man XII

Christianity wasn't for the masses (actually it was the teachings from the Isiyim /*Essenes*/ one of the three main schools of Judaism), no spiritual teaching is ,nor was it back in the day of antiquity, meant for everyone. Until a certain psycho named Saul ... I mean Paul. Said it was for everyone and blah blah blah. Not hard to pass along to a large mass of people that were living like 5h*t and desperate for any means of hope.

No reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.  The problem isn't that there is no pearl to be found within the christian's texts but you and many others should not have access to it. Look how the initiation ritual was turned into some ultimate salvation to save gods special unique snowflake. Which is the total opposite of the ritual.

Bart Ehrman,Did Jesus Exist?:"The Talmud is a collection of disparate materials from early Judaism.Most of the material relates to the early rabbis.The collection was put together long after the days of Jesus."

Jesus is a hodgepodge of all sorts of thought from the regions of the ancient Roman Empire.Jesus telling the man to sell his stuff, giving the money to the poor, camel thru the eye of a needle etc is Essene like.Jesus withering a fig tree, chasing out money changers, and bringing a sword instead of peace is not Essene like.

You can keep the baby, and the bath water.

Posted Image
Leviticus 14 2 Peter 1:16
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MzrIHdN9O7M <-- "Ten Lies About Jesus"
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "The Mythical Jesus"
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <--Science of belief

#45    Heru

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Posted 06 November 2013 - 09:12 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 06 November 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

Bart Ehrman,Did Jesus Exist?:"The Talmud is a collection of disparate materials from early Judaism.Most of the material relates to the early rabbis.The collection was put together long after the days of Jesus."

Jesus is a hodgepodge of all sorts of thought from the regions of the ancient Roman Empire.Jesus telling the man to sell his stuff, giving the money to the poor, camel thru the eye of a needle etc is Essene like.Jesus withering a fig tree, chasing out money changers, and bringing a sword instead of peace is not Essene like.

You can keep the baby, and the bath water.
Apples and oranges bud.

Your talking about worthless stuff here.

And im talking about what 5h*7 means over there.

Who cares if he was alive or not. Either way it doesn't affect the message non.  The Occult should remain the Occult. The sooner the masses forget about spiritual texts and all the religions/cults that popped up from it either disappear or return to the old ways the better. Specially before it becomes more muddled with stuff like Caesar = Jesus.





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