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Perception.

duel perception?

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#1    Professor T

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 11:53 AM

Hi folks..

I've been doing my Brain in trying to figure out something I discovered a few days ago reading about perception that's got me stumped.. And wondering if anyone out there has any ideas, theories or knowledge.

Below is a Necker cube...  A 2 dimensional line drawing that allows one to perceive all sides of a 3 dimensional shape.
Close study of the cube will allow you to change your perception to essentially see it from whatever side you like. It is possible to view this and change it's orientation though perception, and even, sometimes, to see the perceptual shift and essentially flip from which side you are perceiving the cube.

Posted Image
So anyway,  I thought this was pretty cool, and drew a small similar cube on a piece of paper to look at and play with perceptually at work (yep, it was a slow night).. Moving my eyes a little out of focus I eventually found it easy to flip and rotate my perception to view it from all 6 angles.. simple.. Try it now with the Picture on screen if you're not sure what I mean..

Anyway, after a while I moved my eyes even further out of focus to essentially go cross eyed enough to see the cube with double vision, and there while I was playing around with perception of the cube in double vision I discovered that I could essentially perceive the Cube from two separate perceptions at the same time by flirting from left to the right hand view of the cube? What the hell is that all about? I have been looking for an answer to this all day and have found nothing?

According to Wikipedia, duel perception doesn't exist, but I can easily with a piece of paper and a drawing of a cube view the cube from two sides at the same time..

Any Idea's?

Also try it, yourself and let me know if you can do it.. Be sure to make the cube small though, because you don't want to go too cross eyed for too long..

Edited by Professor T, 01 November 2013 - 11:55 AM.


#2    Sunny Day

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 12:05 PM

Ok it's nearly 11pm and my eyes are tired which was just right to be doing this.  I got the flipping thing happening quickly and started with blinking to get the different angles, then I got to the stage of just staring but not looking and saw the different angles.  Much like I used to see those Magic Eye pictures.

I've got to be honest and say I can't see two separate perceptions at the same time though.  Maybe this just proves how special you are Professor T?

I really better go to bed but I will revisit this tomorrow.


#3    Frank Merton

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:09 PM

The brain makes somewhat arbitrary decisions all the time about what is near and what is behind, and with limited clues sometimes it gets it wrong.  In this case with a deliberate effort to confuse it, it will settle first on lowest is nearest and highest behind, then realize that is not really warranted here, and switch.  Stare at long enough and it can't make up its mind.


#4    lightly

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:30 PM

My perceptor must be broken?   All i see is a transparent cube...  with delineated  edges.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#5    Ryu

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 01:33 PM

Cool. I can see both cubes. The trick is to focus on the upper lines to see the upward facing cube ant the lowest lines to see the downward slanting one.

But the "Magic Eye" pictures were always hard for me because when I stare at something, one eye drifts a little and thus makes that "soft stare" hard.


#6    magnoliaReverie

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 02:28 PM

I love these. The magic eye pictures, optical illusions and other "impossible objects".  I see the cube, multiple cubes; but that can't really be though, right? Because a cube is solid. 3D. (I can't see the dual perception you saw though).

It reminds me of an example of a square table I was talking to someone about.   Your brain "tells" you that it is a square table, but how often do you see a square when you look at it? Maybe it's a diamond. Or a completely different four sided shape depending on the angle you are viewing it from. The table doesn't change, but the perception of the person experiencing it shifts.

Edit to add, I found this from Wiki:

Quote

In Peter Watts' novel Blindsight he postulates that consciousness serves only a set of training wheels for reality and this manifests in our ability to only see one aspect of the necker cube at a time. Vampires are said to have a more advanced perception of the universe because they can hold both aspects of the necker cube in their head simultaneously.

Something you are not telling us, T? :whistle:

Edited by sarah_444, 01 November 2013 - 02:34 PM.


#7    Sherapy

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 03:53 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 01 November 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

The brain makes somewhat arbitrary decisions all the time about what is near and what is behind, and with limited clues sometimes it gets it wrong.  In this case with a deliberate effort to confuse it, it will settle first on lowest is nearest and highest behind, then realize that is not really warranted here, and switch.  Stare at long enough and it can't make up its mind.

Indeed, our brain does fill in the gaps according to the Gestalt Laws(Gestalt psychology) of Grouping, such as  law of proximity, law of closure, law of similarity...

http://en.wikipedia....talt_psychology


#8    Leonardo

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 05:47 PM

View PostProfessor T, on 01 November 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

...while I was playing around with perception of the cube in double vision I discovered that I could essentially perceive the Cube from two separate perceptions at the same time by flirting from left to the right hand view of the cube? What the hell is that all about? I have been looking for an answer to this all day and have found nothing?

According to Wikipedia, duel perception doesn't exist, but I can easily with a piece of paper and a drawing of a cube view the cube from two sides at the same time..

No, you can't - and you didn't.

As you stated above - you "flirted" (flitted?) from left and right views of the cube. You were viewing each independently and non-simultaneously - just very quickly one after the other.

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#9    Sherapy

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 07:21 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 01 November 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

No, you can't - and you didn't.

As you stated above - you "flirted" (flitted?) from left and right views of the cube. You were viewing each independently and non-simultaneously - just very quickly one after the other.

Yes, you are correct Leo it is understood as Multistability [of the](Gestalt Properties.)

Edited by Sherapy, 01 November 2013 - 07:23 PM.


#10    Professor T

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 08:42 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 01 November 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

The brain makes somewhat arbitrary decisions all the time about what is near and what is behind, and with limited clues sometimes it gets it wrong.  In this case with a deliberate effort to confuse it, it will settle first on lowest is nearest and highest behind, then realize that is not really warranted here, and switch.  Stare at long enough and it can't make up its mind.

Ahh, but Necker cube proves that perception is of the mind, and not the brain. It is your mind that makes up the decision which side of the cube you are viewing it from based on your focus and intention.


#11    Professor T

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 08:50 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 01 November 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:

No, you can't - and you didn't.

As you stated above - you "flirted" (flitted?) from left and right views of the cube. You were viewing each independently and non-simultaneously - just very quickly one after the other.

View PostSherapy, on 01 November 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

Yes, you are correct Leo it is understood as Multistability [of the](Gestalt Properties.)

Yeah, I must admit I didn't write that bit properly..
To start with I was flirting back and forward, basically moving my attention from one to another. But this morning I did it again, a smaller cube, making double vision, and shifted my attention to cover both images to the cube, and sure enough, I can see both images of the same image at two separate perspectives..

Try it...

I kind of want to know if I'm not the only person who can do this, and what it is..

Edited to add after reading up on Gestalt Multistability law: This law doesn't seem to apply to cases where an object can the dissected into two separate layers. When you go cross-eyed and are viewing an object twice, you seem to have two perceptions that aren't working in stereo.
Essentially it seems, well, in my case anyway, that the object is being viewed with two perceptions that are independent of each other.

Edited by Professor T, 01 November 2013 - 09:33 PM.


#12    Professor T

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 08:55 PM

View PostRyu, on 01 November 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Cool. I can see both cubes. The trick is to focus on the upper lines to see the upward facing cube ant the lowest lines to see the downward slanting one.

But the "Magic Eye" pictures were always hard for me because when I stare at something, one eye drifts a little and thus makes that "soft stare" hard.

Cool, the trick is double vision...

Were you able to see both images of the cube from separate perspectives?

I've never seen anything in a Magic eye picture.. I don't know if there's a knack there. they elude me.


#13    Professor T

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Posted 01 November 2013 - 10:30 PM

View Postlightly, on 01 November 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

My perceptor must be broken?   All i see is a transparent cube...  with delineated  edges.

Allow your vision to go a little hazy, observe the cube.
  • 1st  view it as just a diamond-like 2-d object... simple... after all, it's just a bunch of ambiguous lines..

  • 2nd, pick one square face of the shape, and vwalla, you have a cube that you are perceiving as viewed from that face. You are now perceiving a 2-d line drawing as a 3-d cube. Next change the face you are perceiving the cube from.. what side is the top? what side is the bottom? you can change the orientation of the cube simply by changing your perception of what side of the 3-d cube you are perceiving it from..

  • 3rd, if you draw a smaller cube on a piece of paper, then go a little cross eye'd you can view both stereo images separately or both at the same time. (the trick is having both images close together if you want to view both at the same time)
Having a stereo view of a single object seems to allow split perception where one view of the same object perceives a bottom up view while the other shows a top down view.

crazy stuff..

Edited to add: Hmmmm, and now I can perceive one of the stereo views as 2-d and the other as 3-d..

Edited by Professor T, 01 November 2013 - 11:05 PM.


#14    lightly

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 12:23 AM

thanks professor, i still see a cube   mostly  .. but now , if i want to, i can see it as looking down on a six sided pyramid (sort of) with four large sides, and two smaller  triangular sides  with the square in the middle as the top. See it?  lol

4lo86u.jpg

Edited by lightly, 02 November 2013 - 12:23 AM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#15    SilentHunter

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 12:33 AM

View PostProfessor T, on 01 November 2013 - 11:53 AM, said:

Hi folks..

I've been doing my Brain in trying to figure out something I discovered a few days ago reading about perception that's got me stumped.. And wondering if anyone out there has any ideas, theories or knowledge.

Below is a Necker cube...  A 2 dimensional line drawing that allows one to perceive all sides of a 3 dimensional shape.
Close study of the cube will allow you to change your perception to essentially see it from whatever side you like. It is possible to view this and change it's orientation though perception, and even, sometimes, to see the perceptual shift and essentially flip from which side you are perceiving the cube.

Posted Image
So anyway,  I thought this was pretty cool, and drew a small similar cube on a piece of paper to look at and play with perceptually at work (yep, it was a slow night).. Moving my eyes a little out of focus I eventually found it easy to flip and rotate my perception to view it from all 6 angles.. simple.. Try it now with the Picture on screen if you're not sure what I mean..

Anyway, after a while I moved my eyes even further out of focus to essentially go cross eyed enough to see the cube with double vision, and there while I was playing around with perception of the cube in double vision I discovered that I could essentially perceive the Cube from two separate perceptions at the same time by flirting from left to the right hand view of the cube? What the hell is that all about? I have been looking for an answer to this all day and have found nothing?

According to Wikipedia, duel perception doesn't exist, but I can easily with a piece of paper and a drawing of a cube view the cube from two sides at the same time..
Any Idea's? Also try it, yourself and let me know if you can do it.. Be sure to make the cube small though, because you don't want to go too cross eyed for too long..

I have never tried or realised until you just pointed it out that you could have dual perceptions of a wireframe cube by going cross eyed. You might like this -

A few years ago I was at the gym on the treadmill approaching my limits. I decided to push myself and carry on running full pace regardless of me not being able to get enough breath into my lungs. I figured I would either slow down or start to feel dizzy if my oxygen levels dropped too low at which point I would give myself a rest. After 15 mins I hadnt started slowing down or feeling dizzy so I stopped just incase what I was doing was dangerous.

Anyway an hour later I had a real bad migraine. I experienced coloured patterns and what I can only describe as shattered vision. Its like I could see out of my eyes while at the same time I couldnt see. It lasted for about 20 mins before I returned to normal. The seeing while not being able to see is the important part. Its because it led to me realising the statement 'this sentence is false' isnt a paradox.

I have since found I can get my head around something being both true and false at the same time and taking that further I have found instances where I can get my mind around a four dimensional object (two possibilities existing at once) which makes me laugh because humans arent supposed to be able to do that.





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