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Things God Did Not Create


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#1    Ben Masada

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 09:13 AM

Things God Did Not Create

Many people think that because God is the Supreme Creator of the Universe, He must have created all things. Among these peoples, we find especially those who have never read about anything in the realm of Physics. Believe me, I am not talking about Atheism, as I am personally a Theist myself, although not of the class of Theists who take everything literally in their interpretation of the Scriptures.

I felt about writing this thread when I was asked if God created sin. No, He did not; and here is the method or formula to identify what God has created and what He has not created. First, we must define what we want to know if God created it or not. Then, we must figure if the thing is or not a by-product of God's creation. What do I mean by a by-product of God's creation? Anything that comes about as a result of anything God has created. It was not created by God.

Let us start with sin, which was the reason for this thread. By definition, sin is the transgression of God's Law by man. Therefore, something between man and the Law. Nothing to do with God. Man creates sin, not God. And sin comes about as a result of man's ill-use of his freewill. Obviously, as man creates sin, with man is the power to end the sin he has created.

Let me bring to your attention samples of three other things God did not create because they constitute a by-product or an accident of matter. Energy, time and space. Oh yes, it's natural to get startled at this revelation.

God did not create energy. Energy is an accident of matter. A by-product of God's creation. How about time? This is an accident of motion. Time comes about as matter moves. There is no time in inertia. And for space, what is space? This is the limited distance between matter and matter. Therefore, an accident of matter at a certain distance from each other.

Now, that we know that not everything God created, you have got a little wiser to use the method on a few of other things.

Good luck!


#2    Yes_Man

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 09:29 AM

God created sin, he sent the Devil to Hell, therefore a sin, he is bad


#3    Norbert Dentressangle

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 09:38 AM

View PostThe New Richard Nixon, on 04 November 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

God created sin, he sent the Devil to Hell, therefore a sin, he is bad
I think the history of "Satan" or whatever you want to call him is rather more complex than that, originally Satan was a quite differerent matter since he was one of God's loyal second in commands who got over-ambitious and tried to revolt, and so frankly asked to be expelled. Which I suppose might be a parable for human free will and Sin and so on.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


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#4    Eldorado

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 01:05 PM

*snip*

Apologies.  Posted in wrong place.

Edited by Eldorado, 04 November 2013 - 01:11 PM.


#5    redhen

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 01:40 PM

Hi Ben, since you're interested in ontological and epistemological questions, I thought I would throw this question out there. Did God create natural evil? By that I mean that category of sources of harm, suffering and death such as; earthquakes, drought, cancer, carnivores or the ebola virus?

If so, how is this justified? How does this square with an all-loving God?

Thanks


#6    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 01:44 PM

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View PostBen Masada, on 04 November 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

God did not create energy. Energy is an accident of matter. A by-product of God's creation. How about time? This is an accident of motion. Time comes about as matter moves. There is no time in inertia. And for space, what is space? This is the limited distance between matter and matter. Therefore, an accident of matter at a certain distance from each other.

Ah, so God didn't have anything to do with the creation of stars and galaxies and the Earth, that is just a byproduct of creating matter.  If we discover abiogenesis, then God didn't even create life.  You're doing a great job of demonstrating how God is not really necessary to explain much about our universe.  I agree.

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#7    Rlyeh

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 04:41 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 04 November 2013 - 09:13 AM, said:

God did not create energy. Energy is an accident of matter. A by-product of God's creation. How about time? This is an accident of motion. Time comes about as matter moves. There is no time in inertia. And for space, what is space? This is the limited distance between matter and matter. Therefore, an accident of matter at a certain distance from each other.
God didn't create anything then.


#8    Ben Masada

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 11:17 AM

View PostThe New Richard Nixon, on 04 November 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

God created sin, he sent the Devil to Hell, therefore a sin, he is bad.

Yes, a sin is bad because it is a transgression of the Law but there is no such a thing as Devil as a real being. Devil is only a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. With regards to hell, it does not exist either, unless one means the grave. That's the real translation of hell: The grave.


#9    Ben Masada

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 11:23 AM

View Postredhen, on 04 November 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Hi Ben, since you're interested in ontological and epistemological questions, I thought I would throw this question out there. Did God create natural evil? By that I mean that category of sources of harm, suffering and death such as; earthquakes, drought, cancer, carnivores or the ebola virus?

If so, how is this justified? How does this square with an all-loving God? Thanks

No, God did not create natural evil. Natural events of Nature are not evil. We tend to think so only when there are casualties. Therefore, it becomes a creation of man for being found on the wrong place at the wrong time. Even in the case of cancer it is the result either of a wrong style of life or unprotected exposure to radiation.

Edited by Ben Masada, 05 November 2013 - 11:25 AM.


#10    Ben Masada

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 11:38 AM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 04 November 2013 - 01:44 PM, said:

Ah, so God didn't have anything to do with the creation of stars and galaxies and the Earth, that is just a byproduct of creating matter.  If we discover abiogenesis, then God didn't even create life.  You're doing a great job of demonstrating how God is not really necessary to explain much about our universe.  I agree.

If you assume that I am doing a good job at explaining that God did not exist, who gave origin to the universe if it could not have caused itself to exist? As you know the main reason for the theory of the BB in 1922 was to confirm the Biblical teaching that the Universe did have a beginning. What or Who caused the universe to begin if according to Logic it could not have caused itself to begin?

The stars and galaxies and the Earth are composed of matter. Since it has been proved as a fact of everyday life that matter has a beginning and an end, and that matter could not have caused itself to begin don't you see the obviousness for the Primal Cause? Now with regards to abiogenesis, let us wait until it is discovered and then I'll ask you who caused it to exist. If God did not create life who has caused living beings to live?


#11    Ben Masada

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 11:40 AM

View PostRlyeh, on 04 November 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

God didn't create anything then.

God created the universe which is composed of matter. The rest is the by-product of God's work.


#12    DeWitz

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 11:51 AM

So, as so often happens in matters of discussing theism, we bump into theodicy again. Why did God create reality in such a way that natural evil would be a component thereof?

Often this same logical conundrum is expressed in the pithy question: "If God is omnipotent, can God creat a rock so heavy that God can't lift it?"

When we apply the same line of query to natural evil. it could take a form such as this: "If God is all good and all powerful and all-seeing, why did God create a world with a hydrospheric system such that, predictably and frequently, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands or more people would be wiped out by storms, floods and other water-related disasters?"

My opinion is that there is no satisfactory answer to such questions. Historically speaking, in the Judeo-Christian tradition, when the prophets and sages and visionaries grappled with the issue, they developed increasingly other- or next-worldly answers: Final judgment or consummation of creation; expectation of another world yet to come; completion or fulfillment of creation in a final reality called "resurrection."

So people who have been raised in and/or chosen "faith" as an appropriate way of comprehending reality such as it is. These are important concerns to take to heart and ponder (along with Job--a good read), but pragmatic, scientific or ironclad answers will continue to elude us all. Only by faith do humans, sometimes, even decide to take a next step of any kind in life.

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#13    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 01:48 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 05 November 2013 - 11:38 AM, said:

If you assume that I am doing a good job at explaining that God did not exist, who gave origin to the universe if it could not have caused itself to exist?

I don't know that the universe could not have caused itself to exist.  You dodge this point every single time by equivocating on the word 'universe':  just because our universe had a beginning does not mean that there was nothing 'before' our universe existed.  You just want to indulge in special pleading and endow your god with the quality of having existed forever but only your god, you are unwilling for some reason to allow some type of universe/universes/realm outside of our universe to have always existed.

Quote

As you know the main reason for the theory of the BB in 1922 was to confirm the Biblical teaching that the Universe did have a beginning. What or Who caused the universe to begin if according to Logic it could not have caused itself to begin?

I don't know, neither do you.  You were trying to make some vague argument about if we don't know then we should go with 'probability' and believe that God did.  I'm waiting for how you computed your probability there.

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#14    Rlyeh

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 03:16 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 05 November 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

God created the universe which is composed of matter. The rest is the by-product of God's work.
So you've said. Is this a book you're writing? Because you're definitely making it up.


#15    Ben Masada

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 04:02 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 05 November 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

So, as so often happens in matters of discussing theism, we bump into theodicy again. Why did God create reality in such a way that natural evil would be a component thereof?

Often this same logical conundrum is expressed in the pithy question: "If God is omnipotent, can God creat a rock so heavy that God can't lift it?"

When we apply the same line of query to natural evil. it could take a form such as this: "If God is all good and all powerful and all-seeing, why did God create a world with a hydrospheric system such that, predictably and frequently, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands or more people would be wiped out by storms, floods and other water-related disasters?"

My opinion is that there is no satisfactory answer to such questions. Historically speaking, in the Judeo-Christian tradition, when the prophets and sages and visionaries grappled with the issue, they developed increasingly other- or next-worldly answers: Final judgment or consummation of creation; expectation of another world yet to come; completion or fulfillment of creation in a final reality called "resurrection."

So people who have been raised in and/or chosen "faith" as an appropriate way of comprehending reality such as it is. These are important concerns to take to heart and ponder (along with Job--a good read), but pragmatic, scientific or ironclad answers will continue to elude us all. Only by faith do humans, sometimes, even decide to take a next step of any kind in life.

Evil does not exist. It is made every time man ill-uses his Freewill to cause pain. And natural events are not evil. What makes us think of evil in nature is when human casualties happen as a result of them. Therefore, God has nothing to do with them but man himself is to blame for being on the wrong place at the wrong time.





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