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50th Anniversary of JFK Assassination


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#1    Antilles

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 05:41 AM

I know there are a few long threads on here already about JFK so if a mod wants to attach this to an existing thread it's OK.
But given in just over 2 weeks time it will be 50 years since JFK was murdered, I think it's timely to discuss his death again and the theories around that moment of time on November 22.

I'm interested in any reasonable theories. I'll state straight up that I believe JFK was the victim of a conspiracy and that there were 2 shooters at Dealey Plaza.  I watched a show last week based on Howard Donahue's theory of the murder. He authored Mortal Error: The Shot that Killed JFK. His major argument is that there were 2 bullets from 2 different shooters.
The bullet that killed JFK was inconsistent with the ammo Oswald would have used in the Carcano. He argues that JFK was killed by a frangible bullet that would have exploded on impact. The Carcano would have been a through and through shot.
I can't argue with him on these points because I believe him.

He makes the very good point that Oswald used 3 bullets because one of them was a chamber plug. So, Oswald only made 2 shots and they weren't the kill shot.

Where I disagree with him is his shooter, agent George Hickey in the followup car. Basically Donahue believes Hickey accidentally shot JFK with the AR15 assault rifle he was carrying.

Ideas anyone? Any reasonable theories you'd like to add?


#2    Czero 101

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 07:19 AM

I watched the same show - JFK: The Smoking Gun. Personally I think it makes a very compelling case, addresses all the relevant evidence without falling into the conspiracy theory trap, aside from exposing a coverup of a deadly mistake by an inexperienced Secret Service agent (Hickey) who shouldn't have been where he was that day in the first place.

View PostAntilles, on 07 November 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

Where I disagree with him is his shooter, agent George Hickey in the followup car. Basically Donahue believes Hickey accidentally shot JFK with the AR15 assault rifle he was carrying.

Why do you think this is not possible?




Cz

"Thinking is critical, because sense is not common..." - GreaterSapien
"Enquiring and doubting the "official story" are also good things .... However when these doubts require you to ignore the evidence, to dishonestly cherry pick evidence and claim it supports your case when it doesn't, when you operate a double standard; demanding proof of that which is already proven whilst making unsupported statements and personal opinions to back your own case and when you deny the truth simply because it IS the official story then you are no longer acting in a rational way. This is not the behaviour of a "different thinker", this is the behaviour of a "believer" who chooses not to rationally think about the evidence at all." - Waspie Dwarf

#3    Frank Merton

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 08:34 AM

Fifty years ago.  My word.

I was in college in the States when it happened; in a French class in fact.  The bells all over the campus began ringing and our teacher (a spry old Frenchwoman) went out to find out what was going on.  She came back in with tearful eyes and said, "No more class today," and left.

Personally I find the conspiracy theories surrounding his death pointless and crass, especially at this late date.


#4    Czero 101

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 09:16 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 07 November 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Personally I find the conspiracy theories surrounding his death pointless and crass, especially at this late date.

Fair enough... I do as well... but, the show mentioned above, and the book "Mortal Error: The Shot That Killed Kennedy" that the bulk of that show's research is based on provide a very plausible explanation based upon the ballistics of the shots fired that day and the witness testimony that was overlooked or ignored by the Warren Commission.






Cz

"Thinking is critical, because sense is not common..." - GreaterSapien
"Enquiring and doubting the "official story" are also good things .... However when these doubts require you to ignore the evidence, to dishonestly cherry pick evidence and claim it supports your case when it doesn't, when you operate a double standard; demanding proof of that which is already proven whilst making unsupported statements and personal opinions to back your own case and when you deny the truth simply because it IS the official story then you are no longer acting in a rational way. This is not the behaviour of a "different thinker", this is the behaviour of a "believer" who chooses not to rationally think about the evidence at all." - Waspie Dwarf

#5    Peter B

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 12:08 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 07 November 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Fifty years ago.  My word.

I was in college in the States when it happened; in a French class in fact.
Fifty years ago I was an egg.

Quote

Personally I find the conspiracy theories surrounding his death pointless and crass, especially at this late date.
I see no problem in discussing them - if there's something to them then the facts should be revealled.

Having said that, I'm satisfied with Oswald having been the sole shooter (although I agree with Posner's theory in contradiction to the Warren Commission, that Oswald fired three shots over about eight seconds, and was hit by the second and third bullets).

Edited by Peter B, 07 November 2013 - 12:11 PM.


#6    Junior Chubb

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 12:11 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 07 November 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

Personally I find the conspiracy theories surrounding his death pointless and crass, especially at this late date.

Don't let me catch you commenting on anything that didn't happen this year then...  ;)

The fact your memories of the event remain clear after all this time is clue enough that this will not be forgotten or discussed long after we have gone. IIRC doesn't 50 years also relate to a declassification timeline in the States?

I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. Anyway, it's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.

#7    Frank Merton

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 12:12 PM

View PostPeter B, on 07 November 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

Fifty years ago I was an egg.
Well we all get older: pretty much at the same rate, in fact, so long as we stay out of wars and don't smoke.


#8    Frank Merton

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 12:15 PM

They are still arguing over the Lincoln assassination.  In fact I've seen arguments that Jesus' crucifixion was a put-up job.


#9    Antilles

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 12:21 PM

I have put Donahue's theory out there for debate. There are many people who disagreed with his findings.

Agent Hickey sued St Martin's Press in 1995 but his lawsuit was rejected in 1997 because he had taken too long after the book was published to file his claim.

Both Donahue and Hickey are dead.

For a conspiracy you have to have at least 2 people. I believe there was another shooter besides Oswald. I do not think the shooter was behind the motorcade. Behind the grassy knoll, behind the picket fence, in front of the railway yard, maybe. On top of the overpass, maybe.

List of suspects is long. CIA, FBI, Mafia, Cuban ex pats, nutters.

Add your own or discount them. Do you have a theory as to who killed JFK?


#10    Junior Chubb

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 12:25 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 07 November 2013 - 12:15 PM, said:

In fact I've seen arguments that Jesus' crucifixion was a put-up job.

Of course it was a put up, he walked into an inn with a bag of nails and said 'could you put me up for the night'...

Sorry :blush: Grabs coat and leaves quietly...

I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. Anyway, it's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.

#11    Czero 101

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 07:50 PM

So wait... first you say this in your opening post:

View PostAntilles, on 07 November 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

His major argument is that there were 2 bullets from 2 different shooters.
The bullet that killed JFK was inconsistent with the ammo Oswald would have used in the Carcano. He argues that JFK was killed by a frangible bullet that would have exploded on impact. The Carcano would have been a through and through shot.
I can't argue with him on these points because I believe him.


He makes the very good point that Oswald used 3 bullets because one of them was a chamber plug. So, Oswald only made 2 shots and they weren't the kill shot.

And now you completely contradict yourself by saying this:

View PostAntilles, on 07 November 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

For a conspiracy you have to have at least 2 people. I believe there was another shooter besides Oswald. I do not think the shooter was behind the motorcade. Behind the grassy knoll, behind the picket fence, in front of the railway yard, maybe. On top of the overpass, maybe.

List of suspects is long. CIA, FBI, Mafia, Cuban ex pats, nutters.



So that fact that:

-Donohue's expert evaluation of the ballistics and bullet performance - which were based on the actual available evidence and provable, repeatable scientific research - conclusively show that the third shot - the one you already agree was not fired by Oswald and was of a different type of ammunition than Oswald used - could only have come from immediately behind JFK near to ground level

- statements from 11 witness -including 7 Secret Service agents - that were ignored by the Warren Commission put a a rifle in the hands of a Secret Service agent in the follow car immediately behind JFK's limo at the exact time of the shooting

- the Secret Service admitted that there was an AR-15, a rifle that fires the same kind of frangible ammunition that you already agree was fired by the second shooter - in the follow car immediately behind JFK's limo,

- statements from as many as 10 witnesses at street level and from people in the motorcade behind the follow car (also ignored by the Warren Commission) tell of smelling gun powder / seeing smoke at street level

Are what.....? Lies because they paint a picture of a scenario that doesn't include your Grassy Knoll CIA, Mafia blah blah conspiracy fantasies...?







Cz

Edited by Czero 101, 07 November 2013 - 07:51 PM.

"Thinking is critical, because sense is not common..." - GreaterSapien
"Enquiring and doubting the "official story" are also good things .... However when these doubts require you to ignore the evidence, to dishonestly cherry pick evidence and claim it supports your case when it doesn't, when you operate a double standard; demanding proof of that which is already proven whilst making unsupported statements and personal opinions to back your own case and when you deny the truth simply because it IS the official story then you are no longer acting in a rational way. This is not the behaviour of a "different thinker", this is the behaviour of a "believer" who chooses not to rationally think about the evidence at all." - Waspie Dwarf

#12    Sweetpumper

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 09:15 PM

I think I'm going to buy Ventura's new book on this.

"At it's most basic level, science is supposed to represent the investigation of the unexplained, not the explanation of the uninvestigated."
- Hunt for the Skinwalker

"So many people forget that the first country the Nazis invaded was their own." Dr. Abraham Erskine

#13    Antilles

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 10:12 PM

View PostSweetpumper, on 07 November 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

I think I'm going to buy Ventura's new book on this.

Does he have anyone in mind as a top suspect?


#14    Sweetpumper

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 10:32 PM

View PostAntilles, on 07 November 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:

Does he have anyone in mind as a top suspect?

I haven't read the book yet.

"At it's most basic level, science is supposed to represent the investigation of the unexplained, not the explanation of the uninvestigated."
- Hunt for the Skinwalker

"So many people forget that the first country the Nazis invaded was their own." Dr. Abraham Erskine

#15    Kowalski

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 11:26 PM

View PostSweetpumper, on 07 November 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

I think I'm going to buy Ventura's new book on this.

I'm going to buy that book soon. When I do, I'll post my review and the evidence he as on here. I read a sample on my Kindle, and I was extremely impressed by it. The first page, they immediately start out with Katzenbach Memo. Keep in mind this was sent out on MONDAY, Oswald was killed the day before on Sunday, and Kennedy had been shot on Friday......


Quote

On November 25 1963, the day of the Kennedy funeral, Assistant Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach sent a memo to Bill Moyers of the new Johnson White House. He had begun writing it the day earlier, within hours after Oswald's death at the hands of Jack Ruby.
The second paragraph stated: "The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial."
Given that the authorities could not possibly by November 25 know these things to be true, and Katzenbach later admitted he knew very little at this stage, the memo is clearly advocating a political course irrespective of the truth of the assassination.
The motivation for this political course may be glimped in the succeeding paragraph: "Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting thought that this was a Communist conspiracy or (as the Iron Curtain press is saying) a right-wing conspiracy to blame it on the Communists. Unfortunately the facts on Oswald seem about too pat--too obvious (Marxist, Cuba, Russian wife, etc.). The Dallas police have put out statements on the Communist conspiracy theory, and it was they who were in charge when he was shot and thus silenced."
Katzenbach's memo advocated a public FBI report to satisfy this "objective," though he noted the possible need for "the appointment of a Presidential Commission of unimpeachable personnel to review and examine the evidence and announce its conclusions." He ended by advocating a quick public announcement to "head off speculation or Congressional hearings of the wrong sort."

Link: http://www.maryferre...Katzenbach_Memo

You can read the memo yourself in the link above.

For me, that sets off huge alarms.

I have read tons of books on the JFK Assassination including Crossfire, Destiny Betrayed, On the Trail of the Assassins, Dr Mary's Monkey, and Lee and Me, and my most recent book, Hit List, as well as, Dead Wrong, which touched on it briefly. I've watched too many documentaries and hours of witness statements, etc...My favorite documentary on the JFK Assassination is "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" which can be found on Youtube. It is really good.

View PostAntilles, on 07 November 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

I know there are a few long threads on here already about JFK so if a mod wants to attach this to an existing thread it's OK.
But given in just over 2 weeks time it will be 50 years since JFK was murdered, I think it's timely to discuss his death again and the theories around that moment of time on November 22.

I'm interested in any reasonable theories. I'll state straight up that I believe JFK was the victim of a conspiracy and that there were 2 shooters at Dealey Plaza.  I watched a show last week based on Howard Donahue's theory of the murder. He authored Mortal Error: The Shot that Killed JFK. His major argument is that there were 2 bullets from 2 different shooters.
The bullet that killed JFK was inconsistent with the ammo Oswald would have used in the Carcano. He argues that JFK was killed by a frangible bullet that would have exploded on impact. The Carcano would have been a through and through shot.
I can't argue with him on these points because I believe him.

He makes the very good point that Oswald used 3 bullets because one of them was a chamber plug. So, Oswald only made 2 shots and they weren't the kill shot.

Where I disagree with him is his shooter, agent George Hickey in the followup car. Basically Donahue believes Hickey accidentally shot JFK with the AR15 assault rifle he was carrying.

Ideas anyone? Any reasonable theories you'd like to add?

I watched that as well, and I just don't buy it.

Oswald's nitrate tests were negative which means he didn't fire a shot that day...

Link: http://www.giljesus....raffin_test.htm

Also Kennedy was shot from the FRONT, not the back as the Zapruder film shows.....

Just my thoughts.....

Edited by Kowalski, 07 November 2013 - 11:27 PM.





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