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what was the war in heaven.


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#1    danielost

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 01:48 AM

What was the war in heaven?

Before the earth was formed or the universe came into being, there was a war in heaven.  Remember, everyone in heaven was spirtual exept for our father and mother(god).  So no one could be killed.

So again what was the war in heaven.  It was as debate between two concepts on how to get mankind to return to god.

The first one championed by lucifer was that he would force humans to do what is right.  Let the glory be his, lucifer.---

The second on was championed by jesus.  Was to let us have choose for ourselves.  But, the glory would be god's.

God wasn't going t o give up his glory, so he choose plan two. Lucifer and his followers were kicked out of heaven onto the earth.  




I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#2    supervike

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 03:33 AM

Oh  yeah, that's a good one.

I like the one where that little short dude with the furry feet finds that magic ring and has to bring it back to the place it was made.

Stories like that are great.


#3    Paranoid Android

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:08 AM

In biblical terms I find it hard to justify the theology that there ever was a war in heaven at all. The primary basis for this teaching is Revelation, and I hesitate to use an apocalyptic text as the primary/sole basis for my theology.

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#4    Resh

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:16 AM

where did you get all this?

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#5    Donnie Darko

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 04:43 AM

Daniel can you please cite the passages in the Bible where all this is specifically mentioned?

Also - this is in the Spiritual Section of the UM Forums is it not? I don't recall this asking to debate wether God and the Devil are real, but rather it is implied that you might believe hence the title. Seriously, if you guys want to debate every topic to death and make fun of those who believe in God then take it to the Skeptics part of the site. Otherwise what is the point of having different sections if the boundaries aren't being enforced or respected?

Edited by Ever After, 08 November 2013 - 04:45 AM.


#6    Resh

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:09 AM

View PostEver After, on 08 November 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

Daniel can you please cite the passages in the Bible where all this is specifically mentioned?

Also - this is in the Spiritual Section of the UM Forums is it not? I don't recall this asking to debate wether God and the Devil are real, but rather it is implied that you might believe hence the title. Seriously, if you guys want to debate every topic to death and make fun of those who believe in God then take it to the Skeptics part of the site. Otherwise what is the point of having different sections if the boundaries aren't being enforced or respected?

Its OK, Ill allow it

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#7    Jack Skellington

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:50 AM

Was Google down?

The "war in heaven" is mentioned in the book of Revelation, chapter 12.

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”


When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.





Jesus makes mention also--- in Luke 10-

“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.”

Edited by Jack Skellington, 08 November 2013 - 05:57 AM.

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#8    GoSC

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 05:57 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 08 November 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

In biblical terms I find it hard to justify the theology that there ever was a war in heaven at all. The primary basis for this teaching is Revelation, and I hesitate to use an apocalyptic text as the primary/sole basis for my theology.

Apocalyptic passages are truly difficult, and are like looking through a glass darkly. Personal interpretations can definitely raise heretical (demonic?) teachings too.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#9    danielost

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 02:48 PM

Everyone interpets thy bible for themselves, assuming they read it and don't relie on what others tell them.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#10    supervike

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 06:09 PM

View PostEver After, on 08 November 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

Also - this is in the Spiritual Section of the UM Forums is it not? I don't recall this asking to debate wether God and the Devil are real, but rather it is implied that you might believe hence the title. Seriously, if you guys want to debate every topic to death and make fun of those who believe in God then take it to the Skeptics part of the site. Otherwise what is the point of having different sections if the boundaries aren't being enforced or respected?

I believe title also says 'beliefs' right there in the Spiritual Section.

Whats the point of having discussions boards that people aren't free to discuss what they believe?


#11    Jack Skellington

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 06:28 PM

Quote

The Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs board is primarily aimed at discussing general topics pertaining to religion and spirituality, for skeptic vs believer style discussion and debate on the nature of spirituality themed topics please visit the Spirituality vs Skepticism board.

I don't know what is confusing about that--  What do you believe about "the war in heaven" supervike?

Do you have anything of your own to add to the conversation?

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#12    Ogbin

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 06:44 PM

danielost,

So what you're saying is.. You have nothing to back up what you're saying? :huh:


Edit: 2Timothy 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Edited by Ogbin, 08 November 2013 - 06:58 PM.


#13    Jack Skellington

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:18 PM

Hello Ogbin--- that's kind of a cheap shot, no?

Hardly the stuff of fables--  a war in heaven is mentioned in scripture.  Christians teach that there was a "rebellion" in heaven...  That Satan was the highest angel, that he became prideful and was cast out, taking a third of the servants of God with him.

danielost seems to be suggesting that at the heart of the conflict were two competing ideas regarding how to accomplish a plan of reconciliation for the world...

A curious mind speculates.  I'd suggest that a great many things that you believe have been "inferred" from fragmentary evidence based on things you were told, but not necessarily based on solid fact.  For all the "ideas" of Satan, or Lucifer-- that exist, there is very little actual knowledge to go on.  Would you suggest that Satan's rebellion and this war in heaven caught God off guard---  or would you consider them a part of a plan of salvation for the world that Satan was cast down to?

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#14    supervike

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:24 PM

View PostJack Skellington, on 08 November 2013 - 06:28 PM, said:

I don't know what is confusing about that--  What do you believe about "the war in heaven" supervike?

Do you have anything of your own to add to the conversation?

What do you mean 'my own'?

Snarky comments?  Is that what you are after?

I like big epic good vs. evil stories.  What's so hard to understand about that?


#15    Copen

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 07:38 PM

There was war in heaven. Rev. 12 says the angel Michael and his angels fought with the dragon and his angels and the dragon lost. When did that happen? Since it is mentioned in Rev. 12 as the era Jesus was born and taught the woman (spiritual Israel - the true church) for 3 1/2 years, it seems that it happened in that time frame and while Jesus hung on the cross. For the sun turned black for 3 hrs. It couldn't have been an eclipse by the moon for at Passover the moon is on the opposite side of the earth, so it couldn't come between the earth and the sun and turned the earth black.

Lucifer thought with Jesus dying on the cross now was a good time to create a coup. He had already tried to kill Jesus when Jesus was an infant/toddler. That didn't work. Then Jesus said to the disciples that they would see angels ascending and descending UPON him. Upon is an act of aggression. That must have happened while Jesus was praying in the garden and sweating drops of blood, crying to the Father to take that cup from him.

Jesus came to die "to save His people from their sins."  Jesus wasn't trying to back out of that. But these must have been angels of the devil trying to snuff out His life.
God bless.





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