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Origin of Writing

geometrical astronomical early writing paleolithic incised lines

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#16    anubisptah

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:13 AM

View PostOrcseeker, on 15 November 2013 - 12:09 AM, said:

Hmm I'm also thinking a possibility as to how art was used to detail events and stories through cave painting. Perhaps they conceptualised the storytelling through a different means. Even without trade and such, I don't see the possibility of even communication through written symbols at the least to be completely impossible.

I would of thought it was about expression over money..

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#17    EnigmaticLines

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 09:23 AM

I was wondering.....

If trade was the impetus for writing as you said.... Wilgie Mai is an ancient mine in Western Australia that is often associated with trade. It is at least 30,000 to 40,000 years old.

Ochre from this specific mine was found in other regions with much better grade ochre.....

This has stumped archaeologists as there appears to be no physical reason why people would have traveled hundreds of kilometers to obtain ochre from this specific mine when they were locally sitting on much better sources.

Sooooo the suggestion is that quality alone was not the primary driving force, and that there may perhaps some religious reason attached.

Astronomy and ancient religion often go hand in hand......


#18    Whisperer

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 09:46 AM

Agree that trade was where modern writing originated but the OP was asking where it may have began! (edited, wrong word)

In my culture, writing was frowned upon as a weakness for the mind but used in 'Rune' form to lay down a 'spell' of Law when dedicating a new village or any village.
The 'Law' was accepted when one chose to live there and those who disagreed were free to leave when able to do so or expelled, hence the proliferation of sub-tribes.

Edited by mumanster, 15 November 2013 - 09:46 AM.

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#19    Frank Merton

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 09:47 AM

Most really early writing seems to be lists of mundane things.  That I take as a good clue.


#20    DeWitz

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 09:48 AM

View PostOrcseeker, on 15 November 2013 - 12:09 AM, said:

Hmm I'm also thinking a possibility as to how art was used to detail events and stories through cave painting. Perhaps they conceptualised the storytelling through a different means. Even without trade and such, I don't see the possibility of even communication through written symbols at the least to be completely impossible.

I, too, have long been fascinated by the (possible) relationship between petroglyphs/petrographs/early cave art and the development of written language. I have no answers, only interest.

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#21    EnigmaticLines

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 09:51 AM

Additional data now supporting the theory that archaic lines were drawn to represent astronomical values is now uncovered in the Stonehenge Heritage Park....

http://www.midnights...barrow-lozenge/


The Bush Barrow Gold panel has numerous lines on it that have not been adequately explained by any other prior theory.

The lines once more align to astronomical values linked to the measurement of time and the prediction of eclipses.

...and going back to the circa 30,000 year time frame there exists two bones found in Africa (the Lebombo and Ishango bones) both show alignment to the exact same angular values, as does a circa 30,000 year old Venus sculpture found in Europe and a circa 30,000 year old  recently marked stone uncovered at Shuidongguo in China. The three links are shown below.....

http://www.midnights...thic-era-bones/

http://www.midnights...e-venus-figure/

http://www.midnights...orthwest-china/

Regarding a link to counting the Ishango and Lebombo bones are both considered to be examples of "Tally Sticks" that some archaeologists believe were employed to count the lunar month.....

So you have the link to counting and astronomy in the Ishango and Lebombo bones....and though controversial, many are quite happy to accept that....

but somehow....later.... when evidence for counting is seen.....it is automatically assumed that it must be to do with trade.

These papers listed above are the first to say wait on a second.....

.....the various samples are all aligned to the same angular array.

If the values are assumed to be astronomical you have a direct link to the physical study of eclipses.....which is something that most associate with ancient religions.


And this takes you to the Bush Barrow Lozenge  http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Bush-Barrow-Lozenge-Astronomical-Writing.png


which shows identical astronomical values to the Orkney Venus figure found in Orkney...http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2012/12/11/analysis-of-the-orkney-venus-evidence-for-a-global-civilization/

Other samples uncovered in Orkney show identical values, such as samples uncovered at Skara Brae.


#22    Leonardo

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:06 AM

Are pictographs true writing?

I know it is argued they are a form of writing, but I would argue that true writing is an abstraction of what is represented - and pictographs are not an abstraction but a pictorial representation. They are art, but not - to my mind - writing.

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#23    DeWitz

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:55 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 15 November 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Are pictographs true writing?

I know it is argued they are a form of writing, but I would argue that true writing is an abstraction of what is represented - and pictographs are not an abstraction but a pictorial representation. They are art, but not - to my mind - writing.

I referred to them as precursors to writing, and asked whether or not petroglyphs, pictographs and even cave paintings could be building blocks towards writing. Nordic runes would be a more "advanced" form of written communication translatable as a language. I'm suggesting there may be transitional forms, as in evolutionary theory buttressed by fossilized finds. It's a heory. I am no expert.

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#24    Frank Merton

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 12:19 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 15 November 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

I referred to them as precursors to writing, and asked whether or not petroglyphs, pictographs and even cave paintings could be building blocks towards writing. Nordic runes would be a more "advanced" form of written communication translatable as a language. I'm suggesting there may be transitional forms, as in evolutionary theory buttressed by fossilized finds. It's a heory. I am no expert.
It seems likely.


#25    EnigmaticLines

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 03:45 PM

Frank....

Do you now of any petroglyphs showing linear grid-like patterns in Vietnam?


#26    Orcseeker

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 04:10 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 15 November 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:



I referred to them as precursors to writing, and asked whether or not petroglyphs, pictographs and even cave paintings could be building blocks towards writing. Nordic runes would be a more "advanced" form of written communication translatable as a language. I'm suggesting there may be transitional forms, as in evolutionary theory buttressed by fossilized finds. It's a heory. I am no expert.

My thoughts exactly


#27    Leonardo

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 05:06 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 15 November 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

I referred to them as precursors to writing, and asked whether or not petroglyphs, pictographs and even cave paintings could be building blocks towards writing. Nordic runes would be a more "advanced" form of written communication translatable as a language. I'm suggesting there may be transitional forms, as in evolutionary theory buttressed by fossilized finds. It's a heory. I am no expert.

It's an interesting hypothesis, but I remain skeptical of any transitional linkage between pictographs and true writing. Primarily because of the difference in what they represent - with pictographs representing real-world or concrete things, while writing developed to represent abstractions.

While both are obviously visual representations, that is only because we are primarily visual beings. Because of this I doubt what EnigmaticLines presents in the OP, and in later posts, represents the "origin of writing". Writing came about because of a need brought on by the increasing sophistication of human societies and the need for those societies to communicate effectively with each other regarding abstract concepts - such as commerce, religion, politics, etc.

Pictographs, however, convey messages of concrete things - animals, asterisms, geographical features, and people. I see pictographs as the precursor to later, more sophisticated, forms of visual art rather than a precursor to written language.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#28    cladking

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 10:52 PM

I think the truly remarkable thing is that the first writing wasn't an explanation of
how they discovered writing!  Why wasn't the first writing a recording of the old
oral traditions?  Why didn't they record any of the science or metaphysics?  These
are the important things to the first writers but none of this exists.  Indeed, there
are no books from the first 1200 years of writing!!!  All we have are a few lists
copied in later times. This should make people think and wonder why recorded
history doesn't start until about 2000 BC.

Writing probably arose from small clay discs that were used to represent farm
assets in Sumeria.  People used these discs and realized that if they could re-
present things then they could represent sounds.  Some of these symbols are
even preserved in the writing.

There appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the ancients who invent-
ed writing.  It's pretty hard to believe they mostly spoke in one word "sentences"
about mundane things. This would hardly constitute the incentive to invent a means
to record ideas.

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#29    anubisptah

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:10 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 15 November 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

It's an interesting hypothesis, but I remain skeptical of any transitional linkage between pictographs and true writing. Primarily because of the difference in what they represent - with pictographs representing real-world or concrete things, while writing developed to represent abstractions.

While both are obviously visual representations, that is only because we are primarily visual beings. Because of this I doubt what EnigmaticLines presents in the OP, and in later posts, represents the "origin of writing". Writing came about because of a need brought on by the increasing sophistication of human societies and the need for those societies to communicate effectively with each other regarding abstract concepts - such as commerce, religion, politics, etc.

Pictographs, however, convey messages of concrete things - animals, asterisms, geographical features, and people. I see pictographs as the precursor to later, more sophisticated, forms of visual art rather than a precursor to written language.

How is writing abstract? I believe when you read it messes with your left brain hemisphere. That is not abstract it is the opposite.

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#30    Whisperer

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 12:32 AM

Another thought, writing could have began from 'Hunter Gatherer' maps, organised foraging and hunting plans made in situ for hunting and pre expedition for foraging.
Concepts for landmarks could have been verbalised as well as target species and stratagy placements...its easy enougth to scratch out in the dirt before agreeing upon the execution...*edited for bad spelling*

Edited by mumanster, 16 November 2013 - 12:34 AM.

I be Ra...The river of life, the ebb and flow of summer tides...
Make not an image of me, nor offer unto me the limitations of form...
For I be Soul....and I will not be limited...




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