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The Bottom Line of Israel Palestine


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#1    Yamato

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 08:08 AM

I cannot let peoples' suffering from 70 years ago or 2500 years ago serve as justification for forcing people to suffer today.   Accepting this standard this doesn't require historical facts, religions, ethnic groups or policies.

All it requires is compassion.   Just a little bit of love for people.   All the facts and factoids we find ourselves groveling about on either side of this issue don't go deep enough to hit bedrock - a shared humanity.   I care about millions of innocent people being cruelly punished, perhaps for every day of their lives on this earth.   I consider a person who can ignore causing other people to suffer when determining their own position on this issue to be someone who is lacking in compassion.  

If I apply Israel's solution (economic, logistical and territorial warfare) to both sides of this conflict, I can't even imagine actually suggesting or even implying that every Israeli be made to suffer over its government's behavior.  That would be the penultimate example of Statism in my opinion.  To accept brutal and potentially lethal policies on anyone is morally repugnant to me, even to be done to the most heinous and violent prisoners, much less millions of innocent people and children.

These endless squabbles over history, religion, ethnicity, politics and even just rhetoric, are regrettable; we've heard it all before and we know what the end result is. They only serve to fan the flames and preserve the status quo.  They're regrettable because they shouldn't be what drives our opinions on this issue.   They don't get to the heart of what truly matters.   Do we truly care for other people?    Do we truly believe in freedom?    If we can honestly answer yes to both of those questions, then we won't support human-rights violating tyranny from anyone, be they governments like Israel or non-state actors like Hezbollah.

I don't say I believe in freedom because I believe in it for myself.  That's easy; who doesn't?   I believe in freedom enough that I think that people should get out of other peoples' ways and let them have it; any organization, any group, any individual.   Equality isn't "anti" anything.

This issue perhaps more than any other issue in the world, is framed by special interests and group-think mentalities.   Political groups, religious groups and ethnic groups all combine their influence together to nurture the Establishment's will.  For reasons of all shapes and sizes, they get us to look the other way while good people suffer and die.   I can't in any good conscience sell my soul to that.

People who suffered in the past are no reason to let people suffer in the present.  They're the reason not to.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#2    jeem

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 09:16 AM

We all hate war but our leader make us fight and sometimes brainwash us to love war


#3    Kowalski

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 04:00 PM

You have to ask yourself, if any other countries, had done what the US and Israeli governments do around the world, they would be brought up on charges of war crimes, and I think we all know that.

Interesting article....

Link: http://www.gulf-dail...?storyid=363675

Quote


Repeated bombings of Libya were designed to get rid of Muammar Gadaffi so that Israel wouldn't have to worry about what Libya's madman would do with Libya's petro dollars.

The Pentagon spent $1.1bn in 2011 on attacks that destroyed Libya's air defences and established a no-fly zone.

The US and Nato paid. Only Israel benefitted.

Syria is costing more than $1bn a month and has already cost 100,000 lives.

Refugees cost $7.5bn.

Israeli President Shimon Peres acknowledged the benefit to Israel of the death and destruction in Syria.

"Today the Syrian President Bashar Al Assad is punished for his refusal to compromise with Israel and the Syrian people pay for it," he said.

The Syrians, the US and Saudi Arabia pay. Israel benefits.

Iran is currently Israel's major objective of death-dealing slaughter in the Middle East.

The efforts Israel makes to convince the world that Iran has nuclear weapons or wants to develop them have been non-stop.

Israel's propaganda campaign is as constant and effective as anything Herr Goebbels put together in Nazi Germany.

Currently, Iran and the P5+1 nations are looking for a way to avoid the "Arab Spring" becoming a dark winter.

Until a fair and reasonable solution can be negotiated, Iran will suffer from undeserved sanctions while Israel benefits.

Palestine continues to be the major victim of Israel's perfidy, as it has been for the past 50 years.

The total cost of wars since 2001 is $1,500 trillion.

The war in Afghanistan cost $667bn.

The war in Iraq cost $815bn.

Trillions of dollars and millions of lives have been lost or ruined - a monstrous, unjustifiable expense dictated by Tel Aviv.

The world loses. Israel remains the only real beneficiary.




#4    and then

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 06:10 PM

Paul Balles of the Bahrain Daily?  It's an opinion piece - not hard news.  Mr Balles assumes a couple of things at least that he offers no proof of - this because his readers in that area would be acquainted with the "facts" of Jews being responsible for all the ills of creation.  Libya was no real threat to Israel.  Gadfly wasn't even on the radar.  And Syria?  Israel would prefer Assad had just been left to his own nasty little designs than to be replaced by something far worse.  Sorry - the piece is just another drumbeat from a region that LOVES to beat drums.

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#5    RavenHawk

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 03:30 PM

View PostYamato, on 11 November 2013 - 08:08 AM, said:

I cannot let peoples' suffering from 70 years ago or 2500 years ago serve as justification for forcing people to suffer today.   Accepting this standard this doesn't require historical facts, religions, ethnic groups or policies.
*You* can’t let?  More hate mongering against Israel.  You do realize that there are 7 billion suffering souls on this planet?  You cannot prevent one group or individual from suffering without causing suffering to someone else.  It is physically impossible.  Sometimes, the best thing to do is let them work it out for themselves.  Not every culture is meant to survive.  Evolution tells us that not every form of life adapts and moves on.

Why aren’t you railing against the Muslim genocide on Sudanese Christians, or the mistreatment of Palestinians by the Lebanese government?  There have been a dozen examples just since 2010.

List of Revolutions and Rebellions:
•    2010: Riots in Bangkok by the National United Front of Democracy Against Dictatorship.
•    2010: Second Kyrgyz Revolution leads to the ousting of President Kurmanbek Bakiyev.
•    2010–2012: Greek protests against austerity measures.
•    2010–2012: Arab Spring:
o    The Tunisian revolution forces President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali to resign and flee the country, and sets free elections.
o    The 2011 Egyptian revolution brings down the regime of President Hosni Mubarak.
o    In the Libyan civil war rebel forces gradually take control of the country, and kill the leader Muammar Gaddafi.
o    Post-civil war violence in Libya (ongoing)
o    Syrian civil war (ongoing)
o    2010–2012 Algerian protests
o    Bahraini uprising (ongoing)
o    2011 Iraqi protests
o    2011 Jordanian protests
o    2011–2012 Moroccan protests
o    2011 Omani protests
o    The 2011 Yemeni revolution leads to the eventual resignation of Ali Abdullah Saleh as President of Yemen.
•    2011–2012 Iranian protests
•    2011–2013 Spanish protests
•    2011-2012 Maldives political crisis: Public protests and police mutiny lead to resignation of President Mohammed Nasheed
•    2012 Tuareg rebellion
•    Central African Republic conflict (2012–present)–François Bozizé, president of the Central African Republic, is overthrown by the rebel coalition Seleka, led by Michel Djotodia.
•    2013 Eritrean Army mutiny
•    2013 protests in Turkey
•    2013 protests in Brazil
•    Aftermath of the 2013 Egyptian coup d'état large protests and sit-ins of supporters of the deposed president Mohamed Morsi were based at Rabaa Al-Adawiya and El-Nahda square.

List of Civil Wars:
•    Mexican Drug War, 2006-present
•    Second Ivorian Civil War, 2011
•    Libyan civil war, 2011
•    Syrian civil war, 2011-present
•    Present Libyan factional fighting, 2011-present
•    Iraqi insurgency (post-U.S. withdrawal). 2011-present
•    Azawadi War of Independence, 2012

List of coups d'état and coup attempts:
2013 A Military Coup July 3rd 2013, attempted in Egypt General Abdel Fatah Al Sisi Overthrow Mohamed Morsi the first Elected Civilian president
And I’m sure there are more.  And this is probably a typical 4 year period in human history.  You try to disguise this rant as a general statement and yet, I never have seen you bring up specifics of any other conflict other than Israeli/Palestinian with Israel as the bad guy.  Where is your compassion?

Quote

All it requires is compassion.   Just a little bit of love for people.   All the facts and factoids we find ourselves groveling about on either side of this issue don't go deep enough to hit bedrock - a shared humanity.   I care about millions of innocent people being cruelly punished, perhaps for every day of their lives on this earth.   I consider a person who can ignore causing other people to suffer when determining their own position on this issue to be someone who is lacking in compassion.  
Such is as our destiny to suffer.  Love and compassion does not necessarily mean to smother others; to do so sounds like Big Brother.  People have to work things out for themselves.  That freedom is part of our humanity.  If you are anti-Big Government then you know this to be true.  The facts *ARE* bedrock!  Like I mentioned before, with 7 billion people on this planet, you can’t make them all happy and protect them from suffering.  It is absolutely impossible.  People can only take care of their own happiness or suffering.  And some people confuse acknowledging other’s suffering for ignoring it.  When you are confused, it is easy to become naïve.  One doesn’t have to be a bleeding heart to have compassion.

Quote

If I apply Israel's solution (economic, logistical and territorial warfare) to both sides of this conflict, I can't even imagine actually suggesting or even implying that every Israeli be made to suffer over its government's behavior.  That would be the penultimate example of Statism in my opinion.  To accept brutal and potentially lethal policies on anyone is morally repugnant to me, even to be done to the most heinous and violent prisoners, much less millions of innocent people and children.
I think of every culture on this planet, Israelis don’t need to suffer anymore than they have but for them not to suffer means that someone else will probably suffer.  That is the yin/yang of the balance of life here.  There is no free ride.  It is the world’s karma for making the Jew suffer.  Again, with 7 billion people here, there will be those destined to suffer.  Even if we could get away with only 1% that will suffer, that’s still 7 million people.  You can’t use the government as the scapegoat all the time.  It’s not always only because of the actions of government.  Government will also act on behalf of its people from time to time.  Someone just existing can cause others to suffer.  That’s not statism.  Statism reflects on how the government treats its own people, not others.   It’s hard to tell if brutal and potentially lethal policies are inherently immoral.  You have to look at history.  There’s the exploits of Genghis Khan but his brutality actually was more compassionate and saved more lives than it took.  There’s the Alhambra Decree but it went on to build a nation.  There’s how the US treated the American Indian but the outcome was inevitable in order to merge the lesser culture into the greater.  There’s Jordan’s treatment of the Palestinian but it brought two peoples together.  I would call these very brutal but hardly immoral.  One of the few things I consider immoral is the genocide committed on the Jew by Hitler and the Hutu genocide of the Tutsi.  What Israel is doing to the Palestinian is more like a kinder version of the Alhambra Decree.  The Palestinian is an unwanted culture.  Not even their Arab & Muslim brothers want them.  As a culture, it has reached the end of its evolution.  The only hope for the people is to be absorbed into other cultures.  Life on this planet is naturally brutal in the first place and children are not protected from it.  Again, that’s not immoral, that’s just life.

Quote

These endless squabbles over history, religion, ethnicity, politics and even just rhetoric, are regrettable; we've heard it all before and we know what the end result is. They only serve to fan the flames and preserve the status quo.  They're regrettable because they shouldn't be what drives our opinions on this issue.   They don't get to the heart of what truly matters.   Do we truly care for other people?    Do we truly believe in freedom?    If we can honestly answer yes to both of those questions, then we won't support human-rights violating tyranny from anyone, be they governments like Israel or non-state actors like Hezbollah.
History, religion, ethnicity, and politics are who we are.  We can’t pretend they don’t exist.  We are nothing without them.  They are the core of our lives.  These things are the things that drive our beliefs and they shouldn’t be anything else.  We are not all the same.  We are not cookie cutter robots of the same mindset.  If you believe in freedom then you must respect the individual to live their life.  If it conflicts with someone else then let them work it out.  The outcome may not always be appealing to you.  Because we are all different is the source of conflict, i.e this forum is a good example.

Quote

I don't say I believe in freedom because I believe in it for myself.  That's easy; who doesn't?   I believe in freedom enough that I think that people should get out of other peoples' ways and let them have it; any organization, any group, any individual.   Equality isn't "anti" anything.
Who doesn’t believe in freedom?  Looking at how Obama got elected (and then re-elected) there are many that not only do not believe in freedom, they are totally unaware of the concept.  Moving out of the way may not be possible.  It may not be freedom for people to move out of the way.  Saying that Israel should give *back* their rightful land to the Palestinian is indeed anti Semite.  Very few Palestinians were rightful owners of the land and those that were, I believe, have been given an opportunity to become Israeli citizens.

Quote

This issue perhaps more than any other issue in the world, is framed by special interests and group-think mentalities.   Political groups, religious groups and ethnic groups all combine their influence together to nurture the Establishment's will.  For reasons of all shapes and sizes, they get us to look the other way while good people suffer and die.   I can't in any good conscience sell my soul to that.
Everything is framed by special interests and group-think mentalities.  That’s how we humans function.  So is the special interest of Israel vs that of the Palestinians unique or where you referring about the other 7 billion souls on this planet?  Political groups, religious groups and ethnic groups all combine their influence together to nurture culture.  This is no special issue.

Quote

People who suffered in the past are no reason to let people suffer in the present.  They're the reason not to.
Just because people suffered in the past doesn’t mean that they won’t suffer in the present or the future.  Given the nature of life on this planet, it is guaranteed that people will suffer.  To some degree, we all need to suffer and struggle in order to thrive.  Suffering is the irritant that creates a pearl .

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#6    Dark_Grey

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 03:37 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 15 November 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

Not every culture is meant to survive.  Evolution tells us that not every form of life adapts and moves on.

Human evolution doesn't mean anything since we are able to synthetically keep ourselves alive. In the past, sure: you got a wound, you died from infection. Neighboring tribes could come and wipe out your village. That was a much different time. Now we are living longer than ever before and we have the means to counteract the old "survival of the fittest".

"Not every culture is meant to survive" - well our modern science tells us that doesn't have to be the case. That's what makes suffering more of a tragedy now than ever before.

"Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness."


- Alejandro Jodorowski


#7    RavenHawk

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 04:47 PM

View PostDark_Grey, on 15 November 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

Human evolution doesn't mean anything since we are able to synthetically keep ourselves alive. In the past, sure: you got a wound, you died from infection. Neighboring tribes could come and wipe out your village. That was a much different time. Now we are living longer than ever before and we have the means to counteract the old "survival of the fittest".

"Not every culture is meant to survive" - well our modern science tells us that doesn't have to be the case. That's what makes suffering more of a tragedy now than ever before.
Science explains evolution to us, it doesn’t change it.  “Synthetically” is adaptation, which is not evolution.  Holding off on the inevitable only delays it which usually causes more suffering.  Some would call it fate and others call it innate intelligence but nature knows when to give up.  As long as we live on this planet, we are ruled by “survival of the fittest” and we can’t change that.  It’s as unchangeable as the sun rising.  We can try to change ourselves all we want but we are controlled by the limitations of the human animal (his fears, feelings, and hopes) and the limitations of physical resources.  Until everyone agrees on everything and we have unlimited resources then we will be unable to counteract "survival of the fittest".

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#8    Yamato

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 03:28 AM

View PostRavenHawk, on 15 November 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:

*You* can't let?  More hate mongering against Israel.  You do realize that there are 7 billion suffering souls on this planet?  You cannot prevent one group or individual from suffering without causing suffering to someone else.  It is physically impossible.  Sometimes, the best thing to do is let them work it out for themselves.  Not every culture is meant to survive.  Evolution tells us that not every form of life adapts and moves on.

Why aren't you railing against the Muslim genocide on Sudanese Christians, or the mistreatment of Palestinians by the Lebanese government?  There have been a dozen examples just since 2010.

List of Revolutions and Rebellions:
• 2010: Riots in Bangkok by the National United Front of Democracy Against Dictatorship.
• 2010: Second Kyrgyz Revolution leads to the ousting of President Kurmanbek Bakiyev.
• 2010–2012: Greek protests against austerity measures.
• 2010–2012: Arab Spring:
o The Tunisian revolution forces President Zine El Abidine Ben Ali to resign and flee the country, and sets free elections.
o The 2011 Egyptian revolution brings down the regime of President Hosni Mubarak.
o In the Libyan civil war rebel forces gradually take control of the country, and kill the leader Muammar Gaddafi.
o Post-civil war violence in Libya (ongoing)
o Syrian civil war (ongoing)
o 2010–2012 Algerian protests
o Bahraini uprising (ongoing)
o 2011 Iraqi protests
o 2011 Jordanian protests
o 2011–2012 Moroccan protests
o 2011 Omani protests
o The 2011 Yemeni revolution leads to the eventual resignation of Ali Abdullah Saleh as President of Yemen.
• 2011–2012 Iranian protests
• 2011–2013 Spanish protests
• 2011-2012 Maldives political crisis: Public protests and police mutiny lead to resignation of President Mohammed Nasheed
• 2012 Tuareg rebellion
• Central African Republic conflict (2012–present)–François Bozizé, president of the Central African Republic, is overthrown by the rebel coalition Seleka, led by Michel Djotodia.
• 2013 Eritrean Army mutiny
• 2013 protests in Turkey
• 2013 protests in Brazil
• Aftermath of the 2013 Egyptian coup d'état large protests and sit-ins of supporters of the deposed president Mohamed Morsi were based at Rabaa Al-Adawiya and El-Nahda square.

List of Civil Wars:
• Mexican Drug War, 2006-present
• Second Ivorian Civil War, 2011
• Libyan civil war, 2011
• Syrian civil war, 2011-present
• Present Libyan factional fighting, 2011-present
• Iraqi insurgency (post-U.S. withdrawal). 2011-present
• Azawadi War of Independence, 2012

List of coups d'état and coup attempts:
2013 A Military Coup July 3rd 2013, attempted in Egypt General Abdel Fatah Al Sisi Overthrow Mohamed Morsi the first Elected Civilian president
And I'm sure there are more.  And this is probably a typical 4 year period in human history.  You try to disguise this rant as a general statement and yet, I never have seen you bring up specifics of any other conflict other than Israeli/Palestinian with Israel as the bad guy.  Where is your compassion?


Such is as our destiny to suffer.  Love and compassion does not necessarily mean to smother others; to do so sounds like Big Brother.  People have to work things out for themselves.  That freedom is part of our humanity.  If you are anti-Big Government then you know this to be true.  The facts *ARE* bedrock!  Like I mentioned before, with 7 billion people on this planet, you can't make them all happy and protect them from suffering.  It is absolutely impossible.  People can only take care of their own happiness or suffering.  And some people confuse acknowledging other's suffering for ignoring it.  When you are confused, it is easy to become naïve.  One doesn't have to be a bleeding heart to have compassion.


I think of every culture on this planet, Israelis don't need to suffer anymore than they have but for them not to suffer means that someone else will probably suffer.  That is the yin/yang of the balance of life here.  There is no free ride.  It is the world's karma for making the Jew suffer.  Again, with 7 billion people here, there will be those destined to suffer.  Even if we could get away with only 1% that will suffer, that's still 7 million people.  You can't use the government as the scapegoat all the time.  It's not always only because of the actions of government.  Government will also act on behalf of its people from time to time.  Someone just existing can cause others to suffer.  That's not statism.  Statism reflects on how the government treats its own people, not others.   It's hard to tell if brutal and potentially lethal policies are inherently immoral.  You have to look at history.  There's the exploits of Genghis Khan but his brutality actually was more compassionate and saved more lives than it took.  There's the Alhambra Decree but it went on to build a nation.  There's how the US treated the American Indian but the outcome was inevitable in order to merge the lesser culture into the greater.  There's Jordan's treatment of the Palestinian but it brought two peoples together.  I would call these very brutal but hardly immoral.  One of the few things I consider immoral is the genocide committed on the Jew by Hitler and the Hutu genocide of the Tutsi.  What Israel is doing to the Palestinian is more like a kinder version of the Alhambra Decree.  The Palestinian is an unwanted culture.  Not even their Arab & Muslim brothers want them.  As a culture, it has reached the end of its evolution.  The only hope for the people is to be absorbed into other cultures.  Life on this planet is naturally brutal in the first place and children are not protected from it.  Again, that's not immoral, that's just life.


History, religion, ethnicity, and politics are who we are.  We can't pretend they don't exist.  We are nothing without them.  They are the core of our lives.  These things are the things that drive our beliefs and they shouldn't be anything else.  We are not all the same.  We are not cookie cutter robots of the same mindset.  If you believe in freedom then you must respect the individual to live their life.  If it conflicts with someone else then let them work it out.  The outcome may not always be appealing to you.  Because we are all different is the source of conflict, i.e this forum is a good example.


Who doesn't believe in freedom?  Looking at how Obama got elected (and then re-elected) there are many that not only do not believe in freedom, they are totally unaware of the concept.  Moving out of the way may not be possible.  It may not be freedom for people to move out of the way.  Saying that Israel should give *back* their rightful land to the Palestinian is indeed anti Semite.  Very few Palestinians were rightful owners of the land and those that were, I believe, have been given an opportunity to become Israeli citizens.


Everything is framed by special interests and group-think mentalities.  That's how we humans function.  So is the special interest of Israel vs that of the Palestinians unique or where you referring about the other 7 billion souls on this planet?  Political groups, religious groups and ethnic groups all combine their influence together to nurture culture.  This is no special issue.


Just because people suffered in the past doesn't mean that they won't suffer in the present or the future.  Given the nature of life on this planet, it is guaranteed that people will suffer.  To some degree, we all need to suffer and struggle in order to thrive.  Suffering is the irritant that creates a pearl .
If you can document how US policy has made any of those events worse, then even though they're not the subject here, the same principle would apply.    I wasn't "railing against" anything so much as providing principle to everyone.  Who did I suggest we not have compassion for?    Why aren't you railing against any of these changes of subject in other threads on other subjects?   Why would I "rail against" revolutions?   My own country was borne of revolution.  The US Constitution exists because of revolution.  I don't deny the same human rights and civil liberties that I enjoy in my country to anyone.  
Unfortunately my government subsidizes foreign governments that do and that's the difference.

I unlike you don't agree with subsidizing the Middle East whether it's Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or Israel.   Neocons do, and so neocons are in bed with some of the groups you're listing here.   In order to have a conservative foreign policy, we're going to have to get out of bed with these groups and put an end to the world police complex.  That Project for a New American Century dissertation needs to be soaked with lighter fluid and set aflame.

People everywhere should be free to trade, to have mobility and self determination or else there is no freedom.   Palestinians and Israelis are no exceptions.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi




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