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Who is Wisdom?


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#1    Jor-el

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 08:35 PM

Proverbs 8:1, 22-31

1 Does not wisdom call?
Does not understanding raise her voice?


22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work,
the first of his acts of old.
23 Ages ago I was set up,
at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
when there were no springs abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains had been shaped,
before the hills, I was brought forth,

26 before he had made the earth with its fields,
or the first of the dust of the world.

27 When he established the heavens, I was there;
when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

28 when he made firm the skies above,
when he establishedd the fountains of the deep,
29 when he assigned to the sea its limit,
so that the waters might not transgress his command,
when he marked out the foundations of the earth,

30 then I was beside him, like a master workman,
and I was daily his delight,
rejoicing before him always,
31 rejoicing in his inhabited world
and delighting in the children of man.

So is this a goddess or a god, or, is it God himself taking on the mantle of Wisdom?

Edited by Jor-el, 27 November 2013 - 08:36 PM.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#2    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:22 PM

One could argue that wisdom is a "she" because unlike English where concepts and ideals don't really have a gender identity, in Hebrew/Greek (whichever this was originally translated from) it did (like in French, everything is either masculine or feminine, le or la).

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

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#3    Mr Walker

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 10:16 PM

It sounds like the author is saying that wisdom, like truth, is an absolute. It exists/existed prior to humanity  . The corrollary of this, is that  wisdom, like truth, will call out to a self aware and thoughtful mind. It is also venerating the wisdom of the lord and the consequences of that wisdom in the lords creations. I think this is a paean to the creator, which emphasises his wisdom. It  also implies that any wise man will recognise the wisdom of the lord, because even wisdom itself did so.

In simple terms; god is wise, and so all his creations demonstrate/illustrate the effects of this wisdom.

Edited by Mr Walker, 27 November 2013 - 10:19 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#4    GreenmansGod

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 01:04 AM

I think kind of goes a long with "In the beginning was the word...."    I think it is saying Wisdom is God's thought of creation.  It is a song, a very nice song, you can almost hear the music and the singer when you read it.

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#5    LostSouls7

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 01:49 AM

Who is Wisdom?
I think all the poets... wizards and wise people who wrote what they knew down is wisdom.

Wisdom is the healing in white tea.
Wisdom is how our emotions can change our DNA...

To me wisdom is becomeing one with nature and my animal brothers.

I now fly with the crows... we are together

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#6    Cassea

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 02:02 AM

Wisdom and understanding are two different things.   Wisdom is God,  understanding is the female of God.    I don't understand the confusion.  We are made in God's image.  God possesses all that we are and more that we cannot even understand.  We say "He" out of habit.   This poem is talking about the lamenting understanding that must accompany wisdom in witness.  Wisdom is something that transcends understanding because it is based on the knowing unknown.  The permanence of process without thought.   Compare to a woman who has a baby.  The mother is the witness to the baby, she understands almost all that is happening through the processes of creation and birth.  But the wisdom will elude her always. She will be present in the moment of it and understand it without wisdom. God is the wisdom.

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#7    Mr Walker

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 11:05 AM

Then of course there was Norman wisdom, who from memory, played in a lot of slapstick comedy movies, and was rated one of Britain's top ten actors for about 10 years in the 1950s and 60s. (showing my age here)

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#8    Jor-el

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 07:53 PM

View PostSir Wearer of Hats, on 27 November 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

One could argue that wisdom is a "she" because unlike English where concepts and ideals don't really have a gender identity, in Hebrew/Greek (whichever this was originally translated from) it did (like in French, everything is either masculine or feminine, le or la).

Yes one could argue that but the attribution of feminine or masculine gender to nouns are totally arbitrary in these languages, in essence this means that although the language gives feminine gender it does not mean that "Wisdom" is actually female.

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-C. S. Lewis


#9    Jor-el

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 08:04 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 27 November 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

It sounds like the author is saying that wisdom, like truth, is an absolute. It exists/existed prior to humanity  . The corrollary of this, is that  wisdom, like truth, will call out to a self aware and thoughtful mind. It is also venerating the wisdom of the lord and the consequences of that wisdom in the lords creations. I think this is a paean to the creator, which emphasises his wisdom. It  also implies that any wise man will recognise the wisdom of the lord, because even wisdom itself did so.

In simple terms; god is wise, and so all his creations demonstrate/illustrate the effects of this wisdom.

Notice that Wisdom says that He/She is a Master Workman, thus it is intended to convey that God did his work through Wisdom, Wisdom being the actual creator, much like in John 1:1-3.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Edited by Jor-el, 28 November 2013 - 08:08 PM.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#10    Jor-el

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 08:06 PM

View PostGreenmansGod, on 28 November 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

I think kind of goes a long with "In the beginning was the word...." I think it is saying Wisdom is God's thought of creation.  It is a song, a very nice song, you can almost hear the music and the singer when you read it.

I agree, that is the sense being conveyed here, since the "Word" is the actual one doing the creating just as wisdom seems to be doing as well.

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#11    Ehrman Pagels 1

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 09:51 PM

It's believed that Chapter 8 was one of the last chapters to be composed (Hellenistic period). Therefore, it's either Gnosticism (Wisdom = Sophia = female) infiltrated it, or Gnosticism's right all along and the Proverbs writer disguised it as an artistic license. Anything is possible, I suppose. After all, wasn't it Sophia who created this "Thing," this "Child of Chaos," this "Fool," this "Blind One," at least according to the gnostics??


#12    Jack Skellington

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 09:56 PM

The Spirit of God, or Holy Spirit is associated with a female gender.   Wisdom is acquired, but as a gift given to us from One who gives generously to those who seek.

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#13    Ehrman Pagels 1

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 10:04 PM

"...the Holy Spirit, the Bride of the Christos, the Mother of the Aeons, the great virginal and ineffable Mother, who proceeded from Herself a gift of Herself out of the silence of the Unknown God."  GNOSTIC CREED


#14    Jor-el

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Posted 28 November 2013 - 11:03 PM

Or.... it is simply Jesus Christ.....

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#15    gtimeh

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Posted 29 November 2013 - 06:45 AM

Knowledge and full understanding, wisdom showers down; she heightens the glory of those who possess her. If you desire wisdom, keep the commandments, and the LORD will bestow her upon you. where there is no knowledge, there is no wisdom. Wisdom is God's knowledge, and does'nt cost anything.





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