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Nuclear Deal With Iran Prelude to War

iran israel usa prelude war

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#16    and then

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 04:15 AM

View PostYamato, on 01 December 2013 - 04:08 AM, said:

No subterfuge about it.  What moves the world happens in plain sight.

US foreign policy is so insane I wouldn't see future military escalations as the least bit surprising.   Our policies motivate terrorist attacks.  We've imported terrorism with specific foreign policies that jeopardize our security and threaten our liberty.
Not so plain sight.  The thing in plain sight is the agreement - which looks less and less real as days go by.  But there is no doubt that Oby WANTS to cut a deal that precludes Israel from acting without truly being ostracized by the whole planet.  In that sense I think he got the deal he wanted.  Though it is comical to see the Iranians pushing for more even now by denying Oby's version of what the deal is.

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#17    Frank Merton

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 04:23 AM

View Postand then, on 01 December 2013 - 03:41 AM, said:

Do you really believe this deal by Obama is a subterfuge?  I guess it's possible but the reports indicate that he has been negotiating for months - even releasing Iranian prisoners quietly.  I think he is in earnest and as a bonus he gets to rub Bibi's nose in it.  Obama has proven himself to be a small, mean man who is vengeful when crossed.  He's never forgotten Bibi's lecturing him in his own house.  The Iranians have come out of this deal MUCH stronger in that Israel is more isolated than ever.  If they actually break this deal in a way that is easy to prove I would be very surprised.
We often see Middle Eastern things about the same way, but I don't see Obama being vengeful at the Israelis here.  In fact I think he is trying his best to do what is best for them, maybe even in spite of the myopia of the present Israeli administration.  Keep in mind the present agreement is extremely tentative and depends on Iranian behavior for the next six months.  The peace tendrils sent out recently to the UAE are another hopeful sign that realism has gotten a foothold in the Iranian government.


#18    and then

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 04:22 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 01 December 2013 - 04:23 AM, said:

We often see Middle Eastern things about the same way, but I don't see Obama being vengeful at the Israelis here.  In fact I think he is trying his best to do what is best for them, maybe even in spite of the myopia of the present Israeli administration.  Keep in mind the present agreement is extremely tentative and depends on Iranian behavior for the next six months.  The peace tendrils sent out recently to the UAE are another hopeful sign that realism has gotten a foothold in the Iranian government.
Anything is possible but you will excuse my suspicion considering their behavior over the past few decades.  I read this morning that the "deal" struck in Geneva is being questioned vigorously by Iran and no date for implementation is yet set.  So technically there IS no deal.  My belief is that Iran is, in essence, already a nuclear weapons state.  The difficulty is in the infrastructure of technical knowledge.  They have acquired that as well as ability to produce all aspects of the fuel cycle.  From now - as long as their physical infrastructure remains intact- they can assemble a bomb at a time of their choosing.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#19    Yamato

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 06:50 PM

View Postand then, on 01 December 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

Not so plain sight.  The thing in plain sight is the agreement - which looks less and less real as days go by.  But there is no doubt that Oby WANTS to cut a deal that precludes Israel from acting without truly being ostracized by the whole planet.  In that sense I think he got the deal he wanted.  Though it is comical to see the Iranians pushing for more even now by denying Oby's version of what the deal is.
There's no agreement in plain sight at all.   Actions are louder than words.   The policies are in plain sight, and it's the policies that are the problem.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#20    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 08:21 PM

View Postand then, on 01 December 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

   I think maybe it should be Bibi who scares you.
oh, no doubt about that.

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#21    Phaeton80

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 05:05 PM

View Postand then, on 01 December 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

I can't imagine why P80.  Now if I had POWER... heheheh.... but no, just one man's opinion here.  I think maybe it should be Bibi who scares you.

It seems you need to understand that.. its people like you who give Bibi his power.


#22    and then

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 06:21 PM

View PostPhaeton80, on 05 December 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

It seems you need to understand that.. its people like you who give Bibi his power.
He stands up for the people of Israel so, yeah, I'm glad he's in power.  If Livni and her ilk regain control (not likely soon) Israel will be in much worse shape shortly.  Those fools never learn.

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#23    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 08:12 PM

I wonder how many people in Middle Eastern countries see Bibi in a very similar way to the way Rouhani or Khamenei are seen by Bibi and his admirers.

Somebody will say, 'Oh freedom of speech, freedom of speech.' These are foolish people."

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“You are going to hear all the familiar complaints: ‘freedom of speech,’ ” Mrs. Clinton said in an hourlong speech


#24    Yamato

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Posted 05 December 2013 - 08:46 PM

The people trying to catapult the false propaganda that there's some kind of nuclear program or threat from Iran should be the first people to stand up and acknowledge how good this deal is towards shutting down any potential nuke program.   But they'll be the last people to ever do that, and why?  Because it silences Israel's threat mongering.  Nobody has even described the deal yet other than talking about it nefariously.   I read the deal, and I don't understand what the problem is from the people who "want peace".  {Zionists: insert random irrelevant hypocritical excuse for Israel here}

I don't think this deal is a prelude to war, which smacks of conspiracy theory (and provides yet another interesting conspiratorial narrative to get tangled up in), it's the many rounds of sanctions against Iran that were the preludes to war.

On the contrary to the OP, this is a break in the long history of obvious preludes to war we were already putting up with.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#25    jeem

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 02:29 PM

View PostYamato, on 05 December 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

The people trying to catapult the false propaganda that there's some kind of nuclear program or threat from Iran should be the first people to stand up and acknowledge how good this deal is towards shutting down any potential nuke program.   But they'll be the last people to ever do that, and why?  Because it silences Israel's threat mongering.  Nobody has even described the deal yet other than talking about it nefariously.   I read the deal, and I don't understand what the problem is from the people who "want peace".  {Zionists: insert random irrelevant hypocritical excuse for Israel here}
Those people are biased so they can not accept the goodwill of Iran and describing the deal a prelude to war

View PostYamato, on 05 December 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

I don't think this deal is a prelude to war, which smacks of conspiracy theory (and provides yet another interesting conspiratorial narrative to get tangled up in), it's the many rounds of sanctions against Iran that were the preludes to war.

On the contrary to the OP, this is a break in the long history of obvious preludes to war we were already putting up with.
No doubt.I totally agree with you in this point.

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#26    Yamato

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 05:55 AM

I was the first one to say that Iran's new President was no big deal, because of exactly what we see going on here.  It doesn't matter to the war mongers who the President of Iran is.  AT ALL.    They villainized Ahmadinejad with a thousand lies to start their war and now that the great monster humbly stepped down from power and retired from politics, here we go again.  These people are crystal-ball easy to predict.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#27    and then

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 04:35 PM

View PostYamato, on 05 December 2013 - 08:46 PM, said:

The people trying to catapult the false propaganda that there's some kind of nuclear program or threat from Iran should be the first people to stand up and acknowledge how good this deal is towards shutting down any potential nuke program.   But they'll be the last people to ever do that, and why?  Because it silences Israel's threat mongering.  Nobody has even described the deal yet other than talking about it nefariously.   I read the deal, and I don't understand what the problem is from the people who "want peace".  {Zionists: insert random irrelevant hypocritical excuse for Israel here}

I don't think this deal is a prelude to war, which smacks of conspiracy theory (and provides yet another interesting conspiratorial narrative to get tangled up in), it's the many rounds of sanctions against Iran that were the preludes to war.

On the contrary to the OP, this is a break in the long history of obvious preludes to war we were already putting up with.
Not that you will ever admit it but maybe you can cite the types of changes the agreement brings that permanently change ANYTHING about Iran's nuclear infrastructure?  They need centrifuges to create enriched uranium - how many did they give up?  They need fuel stocks of 3.5% from the yellowcake they created, how much was destroyed?  The 20% stocks - those that are a couple of weeks spinning from being true bomb fuel... while they say they will dilute them back to 3.5%, all this does is gives them a larger amount of fuel stock and makes breakout a couple of weeks longer.  To make a bomb they have everything they need - they gave up nothing.  If it were not for Obama the talks might not have happened at all.  The real issue here is that the world would rather do business today and make a few more coins than look ahead and try to see if a danger exists.  Those who hate Israel more than they value their own futures will deserve what happens once the mullahs decide it's time to play hardball.  They rule by fear and stealth - their own people would love to see them gone.  Yet so many here in the west support them like sycophants...it is amazing.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#28    Yamato

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:48 PM

I don't support Iran, I support putting hypocrisy in its place.   If Iran submits to the deal they won't be able to produce nukes.   What is this nonsense they gave up "nothing"?   Show me where the NNPT that gives Iran a right to its nuclear program says that Iran can't have 20% enrichment?    If you don't like the treaties you sign, change what you signed and then sign it again.  Don't stand in gross violation of what you sign when it comes to Israel and then come here and act like you have a shred of credibility left when you're trying to once again apply a 2nd standard in the world exclusively for Israel.

The US Constitution gives the US the power to enter into treaties with other countries.   Don't sign those treaties and then throw them out the window as soon as one's politically correct little pet violates it.   By law, Iran is allowed 20% enrichment.   They can also have their heavy water reactor that they just gave up.  Here Iran is giving up what they're legally entitled to have by international treaty.   "Nothing", as it were.  Every aspect of this deal prevents Iran from building nukes.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#29    and then

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 12:42 AM

View PostYamato, on 10 December 2013 - 07:48 PM, said:

I don't support Iran, I support putting hypocrisy in its place.   If Iran submits to the deal they won't be able to produce nukes.   What is this nonsense they gave up "nothing"?   Show me where the NNPT that gives Iran a right to its nuclear program says that Iran can't have 20% enrichment? If you don't like the treaties you sign, change what you signed and then sign it again.  Don't stand in gross violation of what you sign when it comes to Israel and then come here and act like you have a shred of credibility left when you're trying to once again apply a 2nd standard in the world exclusively for Israel.

The US Constitution gives the US the power to enter into treaties with other countries.   Don't sign those treaties and then throw them out the window as soon as one's politically correct little pet violates it.   By law, Iran is allowed 20% enrichment.   They can also have their heavy water reactor that they just gave up.  Here Iran is giving up what they're legally entitled to have by international treaty.   "Nothing", as it were.  Every aspect of this deal prevents Iran from building nukes.
The only thing between them and a nuke will be the decision to assemble it.  They gave up NO infrastructure.  NOTHING.  EVERYTHING they had the day they signed the agreement they STILL have.  The only change they made at all was to dilute the 20% to 3.5% - a matter of 2 weeks to correct.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#30    Yamato

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 07:14 PM

View Postand then, on 11 December 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

The only thing between them and a nuke will be the decision to assemble it.  They gave up NO infrastructure.  NOTHING.  EVERYTHING they had the day they signed the agreement they STILL have.  The only change they made at all was to dilute the 20% to 3.5% - a matter of 2 weeks to correct.
Well since you're not a nuclear engineer, I won't be consulting with you for information.  You don't even have a source for this.   They opened up their facilities to even greater scrutiny when they were already under the greatest scrutiny of any nuclear power in history.    If we go with your kool aid fears that they have a nuclear weapons program, the unprecedented transparency is going to reveal that.   Then you'll accept that information when it comes and use it to fear monger and war monger over.  But for some reason, you don't allow yourself that capability at this time.  You'll accept the benefits of it when they come however.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi





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