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Fools, or Foolhardy?


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#1    Mistydawn

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 09:18 PM

Thousands of years ago, the Scriptures written by men for men and believed to be God's Truth, are still believed and lives lived in accordance to these believed truths, shape our lives, our thoughts and our deeds.

I ask, why is it, that God only ever in the whole known history of mankind,has revealed his true presence to a very few?
This question asked of holy people who live their lives for God, will tell you it is becaue we, mere mortals, would be blown out of the water, totally sent ballistically mad, etc at the actual sight of the true living God, that we cannot see him/it/her.
I just wonder what everyone elses thoughts are on this subject.

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#2    Leonardo

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 09:26 PM

Making "the revelation of god" exclusive affords those who claim to have experienced it a degree of privilege and control over those who believe, but have not experienced this "revelation". From the earliest societies, humankind has granted the leaders in society the illusion of having some greater innate "wisdom/intellect/moral authority" than the 'ordinary folks'.

It's nonsense, of course, but it suits us to believe it to be true.

Edited by Leonardo, 07 December 2013 - 09:27 PM.

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#3    thyra

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 09:39 PM

can of worms :D

A mere person can not start a world wide religion. it just doesnt work. There are some spiritual people who well deserve their place in history, through the hand of god or through their own efforts. Just remember Siddharta. The life he left behind in his search, his endless stubbornness to find the meaning of life, his fastings etc.

god doesnt just show up, this is what we know and in this case, for a healthy human, it is a nice option to place your trust on a fellow human who claims to have access to spiritual wisdom or understanding. What worst can happen is that you accuse the man of being wrong :)

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#4    Mistydawn

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 09:45 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 07 December 2013 - 09:26 PM, said:

Making "the revelation of god" exclusive affords those who claim to have experienced it a degree of privilege and control over those who believe, but have not experienced this "revelation". From the earliest societies, humankind has granted the leaders in society the illusion of having some greater innate "wisdom/intellect/moral authority" than the 'ordinary folks'.

It's nonsense, of course, but it suits us to believe it to be true.

Thanks for your response Leonardo. Can I ask you though, why do you think that the Scriptures, particularly the Bible and Koran have never been added to or expanded over the thousands of years, I mean, has there never been any more Prophets or Seers or God's own Disciples since they were written, not in all these milleniums? I mean, in your opinion and anyone else who reads this, why did the holy workd f the Bible just stop.

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#5    Mistydawn

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 09:48 PM

View Postthyra, on 07 December 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

can of worms :D

A mere person can not start a world wide religion. it just doesnt work. There are some spiritual people who well deserve their place in history, through the hand of god or through their own efforts. Just remember Siddharta. The life he left behind in his search, his endless stubbornness to find the meaning of life, his fastings etc.

god doesnt just show up, this is what we know and in this case, for a healthy human, it is a nice option to place your trust on a fellow human who claims to have access to spiritual wisdom or understanding. What worst can happen is that you accuse the man of being wrong :)
Thanks Thyra. I would never want to start a new religion, we have quite enough in the world!!

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#6    Emin

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 10:15 PM

It's only "given" to few because people are very keen on others who live what they preach and those who just do it for the wrong reasons.

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#7    Beany

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 10:25 PM

You'd have to define "god", really. The deity referred to in the bible, or the Holy Spirit, or divine energy. Sometimes our definitions & preconceptions blind us to the presence of the divine/numinous light/sacred(energy).


#8    Leonardo

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Posted 07 December 2013 - 11:56 PM

View PostMistydawn, on 07 December 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

Thanks for your response Leonardo. Can I ask you though, why do you think that the Scriptures, particularly the Bible and Koran have never been added to or expanded over the thousands of years, I mean, has there never been any more Prophets or Seers or God's own Disciples since they were written, not in all these milleniums? I mean, in your opinion and anyone else who reads this, why did the holy workd f the Bible just stop.

So that those who gained control through their "divine experience" could retain it.

It is quite ridiculous to presume some deity - concerned with the whole of humanity - would deliver a message to only a select few and in a certain time-frame. The obvious reason for this claim of "divine privilege", is to allow those with authority gained from this claim to "control the message".

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#9    Skep B

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 01:28 AM

Well, technically the time frame isn't all that specific, the old testament is thousands of years in story, and the new testament is a drastically different mindset than the old, to the point they barely connect,.

When you know what a man loves, you know what can kill him


#10    and then

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 03:07 AM

View PostKelevra, on 08 December 2013 - 01:28 AM, said:

Well, technically the time frame isn't all that specific, the old testament is thousands of years in story, and the new testament is a drastically different mindset than the old, to the point they barely connect,.
My understanding (admittedly limited) of the NT is that the reason the message seems so tenuously connected is that the message is for a different group of people.  The good news given to Paul was for the Gentiles.  The OT was for Israel, it's laws and statutes and holy days.  Once the messiah returned and was rejected he began reaching out to the Gentile to "fill the wedding party" (my expression).  He is the same God, he is sovereign and as such can do as he will.  The book (s) that people place their faith in have one thing in common imo, they demonstrate a deep human need to understand the unknown.  The only "proof" as such that can be gleaned from any holy text is fulfilled prophecy and even THAT has to be accepted with a degree of faith.  Ultimately the whole issue hinges on a person's ability and desire to believe.  I have always had such need.   Those who feel that belief is foolishness or weakness will not be convinced otherwise short of actually being called by God himself and some would reject even that.  I used to argue with such people when I was younger but I have realized that it is pointless and that they have a perfect right to believe as they will - just as I.
It is unfortunate that they are blind to the fact that they are gradually becoming so willful in their rejections that they want to suppress another's right to their own "folly" :)
That was predicted too.  I honestly believe that mankind is entering the final act of the human drama of self will and THIS generation will see Christ return.  Never before have so many predictions of his return been apparent simultaneously.  I long for the day and I pray it will be very soon.  NOT because I want to see anyone suffer - but simply because the world we live in is so broken and full of unquenchable hatred and suffering that ONLY his return can mend it.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#11    davros of skaro

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 03:38 AM

The Prophet Joseph Smith.

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Leviticus 14 2 Peter 1:16
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https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "The Mythical Jesus"
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <--Science of belief

#12    Skep B

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 03:40 AM

View Postand then, on 08 December 2013 - 03:07 AM, said:

My understanding (admittedly limited) of the NT is that the reason the message seems so tenuously connected is that the message is for a different group of people.  The good news given to Paul was for the Gentiles.  The OT was for Israel, it's laws and statutes and holy days.  Once the messiah returned and was rejected he began reaching out to the Gentile to "fill the wedding party" (my expression).  He is the same God, he is sovereign and as such can do as he will.  The book (s) that people place their faith in have one thing in common imo, they demonstrate a deep human need to understand the unknown.  The only "proof" as such that can be gleaned from any holy text is fulfilled prophecy and even THAT has to be accepted with a degree of faith.  Ultimately the whole issue hinges on a person's ability and desire to believe.  I have always had such need.   Those who feel that belief is foolishness or weakness will not be convinced otherwise short of actually being called by God himself and some would reject even that.  I used to argue with such people when I was younger but I have realized that it is pointless and that they have a perfect right to believe as they will - just as I.
It is unfortunate that they are blind to the fact that they are gradually becoming so willful in their rejections that they want to suppress another's right to their own "folly" :)
That was predicted too.  I honestly believe that mankind is entering the final act of the human drama of self will and THIS generation will see Christ return.  Never before have so many predictions of his return been apparent simultaneously.  I long for the day and I pray it will be very soon.  NOT because I want to see anyone suffer - but simply because the world we live in is so broken and full of unquenchable hatred and suffering that ONLY his return can mend it.

I've always taken it that the book goes something like:  Old Testament: how a society is built   New Testament: How a society should be run

When you know what a man loves, you know what can kill him


#13    David-C

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 05:35 AM

View Postthyra, on 07 December 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

can of worms :D

A mere person can not start a world wide religion. it just doesnt work. There are some spiritual people who well deserve their place in history, through the hand of god or through their own efforts. Just remember Siddharta. The life he left behind in his search, his endless stubbornness to find the meaning of life, his fastings etc.

god doesnt just show up, this is what we know and in this case, for a healthy human, it is a nice option to place your trust on a fellow human who claims to have access to spiritual wisdom or understanding. What worst can happen is that you accuse the man of being wrong :)

tell that to L. Ron Hubbard :alien:


#14    Mr Walker

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Posted 08 December 2013 - 12:32 PM

View PostMistydawn, on 07 December 2013 - 09:18 PM, said:

Thousands of years ago, the Scriptures written by men for men and believed to be God's Truth, are still believed and lives lived in accordance to these believed truths, shape our lives, our thoughts and our deeds.

I ask, why is it, that God only ever in the whole known history of mankind,has revealed his true presence to a very few?
This question asked of holy people who live their lives for God, will tell you it is becaue we, mere mortals, would be blown out of the water, totally sent ballistically mad, etc at the actual sight of the true living God, that we cannot see him/it/her.
I just wonder what everyone elses thoughts are on this subject.

Na, that's not the case. Most people really do not want to incorporate god into their lives. They are happy to live in a faith based relationship, which they can construct and control, but not in a real relationship with an independent powerful being who can effect and influence their life in real ways beyond their control. Hence they do not choose to open themselves to that sort of relationship with god. Any one can know god if they truly want to, and are prepared to accept the consequences.
Ps Leonardo; I can't speak for others, but the presence of god in my life doesn't make me want to control people, or any more of a megalomaniac than I was an  atheist. Truth is truth, and real truth sets you free from the restrictions of untruths.

But a person can only learn a truth through personal experience, not via another's truth or teaching. I make no special claim of divine privilege and there is nothing special about me. I do not perceive any special authority  given to me from my experiences with god, and I do not attempt to control the message I just relate my experiences with god and what he does for me.  God makes a direct connection with individual  humans  No one needs me or any other intermediary to live connected to/with god. Nor do they need religion special rites and rituals etc Only  an open heart and mind is needed. Once god enters into a person, that person is totally transformed and empowered, and becomes a new and different human being from their old self.

No one gains control through a divine experience, although others might give/surrender control to a person with such a claim..
Experience with divine is the natural 'birthright" of every human being, not a select few.
There are many paths to the divine.
True contact with the divine alters a person irrevocably for the better and greatly empowers them.
Some one who has experienced the divine is likely to try and  introduce others to it, because the experience is so wonderful and empowering for them. But life isn't like that. Such an experience might NOT have the same effect on another person.

Edited by Mr Walker, 08 December 2013 - 12:50 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#15    Mistydawn

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 08:36 PM

Mr Walker, I am confused. I don't understand your response to my question
"I ask, why is it, that God only ever in the whole known history of mankind,has revealed his true presence to a very few?" I understand your take on "personal experience. But that is about it!! sorry!

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