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The Medicineless hospitals of China


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#16    third_eye

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:14 PM

View PostRolci, on 13 December 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

thanx 4 all the useful linx 3rd i. I appreciate your contribution! Do you have links on stuff other than acupuncture as well?

~snip


Sites and sources in ENglish is rare ... but gimme a day or two  ... I am in a bit of a squeeze on time ... the Holidays and Festivities and all ... one note on QiGOng though ... be very careful as the concerns regarding shamans and false claims are a plenty is not unfounded ...

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#17    uuner

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 11:07 PM

I believe in chi related healing, and I would definitely love to believe that "chi.hospitals" have a success rate of 95%.... but, the sad truth is that chinese, and many asian countries have a bad habit of sugarcoating pretty much everything. The extreme example here being North Korea and their ridiculous Kim Jong Il worship. This sugarcoating is mostly performed by the governments to improve the country's image. Let's face it, chinese people are pretty damn good at lying, I've been a victim of this too, sadly.

Now there is truth in chinese medicine, but much is just mumbojumbo that the higher-ups have made up to make China seem like a mysterious wonderland (for example: taiji, when done properly, with the right breathing and body control can work miracles for your body, BUT it won't cure cancer). You have to go pretty deep into the more desolate, traditional and less known parts of china to find the good stuff, and when (if) you do find the good stuff, it's really unlikely that the people would be willing to share their secrets with an outsider, especially if he/she is a westerner.

Now that I've lost you it kills me to say
I tried to hold on as you slowly slipped away.
I'm losing the fight.
I treated you so wrong now let me make it right.
-Avenged Sevenfold

#18    third_eye

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:21 AM

View Postuuner, on 14 December 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

I believe in chi related healing, and I would definitely love to believe that "chi.hospitals" have a success rate of 95%.... but, the sad truth is that chinese, and many asian countries have a bad habit of sugarcoating pretty much everything. The extreme example here being North Korea and their ridiculous Kim Jong Il worship. This sugarcoating is mostly performed by the governments to improve the country's image. Let's face it, chinese people are pretty damn good at lying, I've been a victim of this too, sadly.

Now there is truth in chinese medicine, but much is just mumbojumbo that the higher-ups have made up to make China seem like a mysterious wonderland (for example: taiji, when done properly, with the right breathing and body control can work miracles for your body, BUT it won't cure cancer). You have to go pretty deep into the more desolate, traditional and less known parts of china to find the good stuff, and when (if) you do find the good stuff, it's really unlikely that the people would be willing to share their secrets with an outsider, especially if he/she is a westerner.

Ahhh ... how do I start ... first of all .. the 'Chinese' are as damn good at lying as any other racial or religious denomination  ...
Fro man Asian point of view .. and  I speak of this from experience ... the problem usually stems from Westerners are so filled with 'ideas' that when you say 'one' they go ' five billion ... why not? ' and makes massive leaps to conclusions .. that's why Chinese teachers/masters is very reluctant to take on students such as these ... not only westerners ...


Quote

A Cup of Tea
Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"
"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"
  • 101 Zen Stories link

Another problem is a lot of Westerners come with preconceived expectations ... and when they are not met ... they accuse.
Most times ... one does not need to lie to them .. they are already lying to themselves ... most of their lives.


_______________________________________________________




Quote

Qigong exercises expand healing energy

By Julie Fann
STAR STAFF
jfann@starhq.com

Webb recently attended a Qigong seminar in Asheville, N.C. where he said approximately 200 people attended. Relatively new to Americans, Webb hopes the exercises will be used more to help those who suffer from life-threatening illnesses such as cancer.
   "It is so sensitive to helping people, that we will volunteer to help somebody at no charge. Then, if they like what we do, they can make a little contribution to help keep us going," Webb said. "You've got to kind of accept something and say, 'if there is some truth here, maybe I should try it.'"
   Webb said that, in China, there are instances where Qigong exercises have healed those suffering from cancer.
   "Sooner or later, nearly every major doctor's office will have someone who knows something about Qigong on their staff," said Webb.
   Webb explained that western medicine focuses too heavily on treating symptoms through medication, rather than finding alternative ways to promote health for individuals.


Quote

Dr Amir Farid Isahak is a medical specialist who practises holistic, aesthetic and anti-ageing medicine. He is a qigong master and founder of SuperQigong.



Art of Healing

Published: Sunday January 29, 2012 MYT 12:00:00 AM
Updated: Thursday August 22, 2013 MYT 7:07:44 PM
Shaolin YiJinJing Qigong - link



Sunday November 6, 2005
The secrets of qigong - link


Sunday April 23, 2006
Qigong revival - link



Dr Amir is a higly respected spokesman for QiGong practices for years ...

Quote

DR AMIR FARID ISAHAK ( link ) was the Founding President of Guolin Qigong Association Malaysia and was also the Vice-President of the Malaysian Reiki Association. He has been practising and teaching Qigong ( Islamic, Guolin, Xiangong and Shaolin Qigong ) for about 15 years, and is a respected Qigong Master and Reiki Master ( Usui & Karuna Reiki ). He is the founder of "SuperQigong" - a set of Qigong exercises most beneficial to prevent or recover from the most common health problems - cancer, heart disease, stroke, arthritis, spinal problems, etc. These exercises include the anti-cancer Amazing Qigong Walk, and other exercises modified from classic Qigong styles, and also invented by him.

He is a senior medical consultant with over 25 years of practice [ Qualifications = MBBS ( Qld,Aust ), MMED ( Spore ), MRCOG ( UK ) ]. He is a pioneer of Anti-Aging Medicine in Malaysia. He is a member of the Society of Anti-Aging Medicine Malaysia, Healthy Aging Society Malaysia, and a Board Member of the International Health & Longevity Foundation based in Japan. He is also a pioneer in promoting Holistic Integrated Medicine ( combining modern, natural and complementary therapies ), and in promoting Healthy Natural Menopause in Malaysian women.

I think that's a good start for the time being ... good luck ...

but also ... on the flip side ...


Quote

Qigong master to the stars ‘cursed’ journalist for exposing his tricks
Global Times | 2013-7-24 0:08:01
By Global Times

Zhang Han, a journalist from The Beijing News, published an article on Wang on Sunday, revealing Wang's secret of success, and detailing how he introduced rich business people who crave "a little help" to powerful government officials, for a price.

Zhang told the Global Times that she is not afraid of such "threats" and that she will keep covering the story via other ways.

Photos circulating on the Internet show Wang's immense resources and networking capabilities. He was seen in photos with China's top government officials and celebrities, such as movie star Jet Li and Jack Ma, billionaire founder of online shopping portal Taobao and website Alibaba.  

Wang's most famous "supernatural" trick is to conjure snakes from an empty basin. He explained that the snakes were freshly caught in the field by his spirit, which could leave his body and travel thousands of miles in the blink of an eye.

Most times when there is a spectacle of 'miracle illusions' ... best do a double check ... 'Masters' as defined by Asians do not make a spectacle of themselves ...

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#19    uuner

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 01:53 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 15 December 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

Ahhh ... how do I start ... first of all .. the 'Chinese' are as damn good at lying as any other racial or religious denomination  ...
Fro man Asian point of view .. and  I speak of this from experience ... the problem usually stems from Westerners are so filled with 'ideas' that when you say 'one' they go ' five billion ... why not? ' and makes massive leaps to conclusions .. that's why Chinese teachers/masters is very reluctant to take on students such as these ... not only westerners ...

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound offensive in any way. I didn't mean that all Chinese are liars, lying is a very strong word any ways, and I have a bad habit of generalizing... What I was trying to get to was more like people from western cultures have a harder time interpreting body language, like smiling and saying yes yes can mean no (based from my chinese teacher, don't bite my head off if I'm wrong). What I meant by my own experience was that when I visited China last year, I got hustled quite a bit (except for the time when my local friend was along with me). I realize that this is a common phenomenon in several areas that have tourists, but I believe that since I'm from Finland, where people are quite straight forward and blunt (overly so too from an outsiders perspective), I am somewhat ethnocentric when it comes to self expression.

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I tried to hold on as you slowly slipped away.
I'm losing the fight.
I treated you so wrong now let me make it right.
-Avenged Sevenfold

#20    third_eye

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:41 PM

View Postuuner, on 15 December 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound offensive in any way. I didn't mean that all Chinese are liars, lying is a very strong word any ways, and I have a bad habit of generalizing... What I was trying to get to was more like people from western cultures have a harder time interpreting body language, like smiling and saying yes yes can mean no (based from my chinese teacher, don't bite my head off if I'm wrong). What I meant by my own experience was that when I visited China last year, I got hustled quite a bit (except for the time when my local friend was along with me). I realize that this is a common phenomenon in several areas that have tourists, but I believe that since I'm from Finland, where people are quite straight forward and blunt (overly so too from an outsiders perspective), I am somewhat ethnocentric when it comes to self expression.

No worries ... If I were to make conclusions based solely on shucksters that skims profits off tourists, the world would be the same kind of  landscape that you speak of to me also :yes: It the same everywhere ... hence 'tourist trap'

China is especially bad for a time because the 'opening' also came with opportunities ... a free for all ... and not only for the honest down to earth honest hard working 'China man' and I can assure you that Westerners were not only their intended targets ... now these idiots even bring their operations off shore to other countries in the region ... scam artists that makes millions in a few months and then 'disappears' Malaysia has made arrests of well over hundreds of them this year alone.

One thing about Asians is the oriental 'directness' and 'bluntness' is often misunderstood ... direct and strait to the point is being as honest as possible to us. And most often thought of as rude or blunt.

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#21    Harte

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 11:29 PM

View PostRafterman, on 13 December 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

What a fantastic way for China to keep its healthcare costs in check.
AND their population.

Harte

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#22    Rolci

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 12:47 AM

Thanks 3rd eye, you say not many good sites in English. Then link your best Chinese sites, we all have Google Translate, it's not the best but we can get an idea from the context.

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#23    third_eye

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 01:01 AM

View PostRolci, on 16 December 2013 - 12:47 AM, said:

Thanks 3rd eye, you say not many good sites in English. Then link your best Chinese sites, we all have Google Translate, it's not the best but we can get an idea from the context.

Not recommended ... Mandarin comes in too many internet flavors ... and Google translate mucks them up very very badly ... not to mention there is Cantonese (Hong Kong) .... believe me ... a little idea is the least you can get from online translators ...

~ best to find English writers knowledgeable about the topic writing in English ... its hard enough with the cultural idiosyncrasies to write about the subject without personal experiences on the topic here ....

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#24    psyche101

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 02:18 AM

View Postuuner, on 14 December 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

I believe in chi related healing, and I would definitely love to believe that "chi.hospitals" have a success rate of 95%.... but, the sad truth is that chinese, and many asian countries have a bad habit of sugarcoating pretty much everything. The extreme example here being North Korea and their ridiculous Kim Jong Il worship. This sugarcoating is mostly performed by the governments to improve the country's image. Let's face it, chinese people are pretty damn good at lying, I've been a victim of this too, sadly.

If it was as miraculous as some claim, we would not even have Western Medicine.

View Postuuner, on 14 December 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

Now there is truth in chinese medicine, but much is just mumbojumbo that the higher-ups have made up to make China seem like a mysterious wonderland (for example: taiji, when done properly, with the right breathing and body control can work miracles for your body, BUT it won't cure cancer). You have to go pretty deep into the more desolate, traditional and less known parts of china to find the good stuff, and when (if) you do find the good stuff, it's really unlikely that the people would be willing to share their secrets with an outsider, especially if he/she is a westerner.


This sounds spot on.
I agree, after all a great many drugs come from plants don't they. Any long tradition with deep experience would be a livelihood, and I would not expect that to be shared freely. It is also hard to consider what secrets people think are still being kept from Western Medicine, who not only advocate stuff that actually works, but tests it to see what works for most people and what side effects might be present. Plant extracts are where drugs come from, and an awesome example if a Pharmaceutical Company right here in Australia who has made a revolutionary skin cancer treatment out of a common weed. It has great and amazing healing properties, but the amount of this weed they have to process to make one small tube is phenomenal, you could never smear that much on your body. Whilst it is beneficial in natural form, strength is just not enough to be of assistance. I agree the benefits can be there, but guidance from a knowledgeable authority like Western Medicine is still required or one is just stumbling about in the dark.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#25    psyche101

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 02:23 AM

View PostRolci, on 16 December 2013 - 12:47 AM, said:

Thanks 3rd eye, you say not many good sites in English. Then link your best Chinese sites, we all have Google Translate, it's not the best but we can get an idea from the context.


Yes, because that is where Chinese traditionalists tend to store their thoughts, recipes and medical documents isn't it. I have never seen a photo of a chinese man on his pushbike attending a small home in the middle of nowhere without his laptop.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#26    psyche101

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 02:29 AM

View PostRolci, on 13 December 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

First off, the website I offered is not some kind of official "network of chinese medicineless hospitals" website. I  wanted to share knowledge of these hospitals and the whole phenomenon that is spreading, certainly not through the media, so I did a google search and picked a random website so you can got some idea of what I'm on about rather than trying to give an incomplete and possibly mistake-laden account from memory. There are thousands more websites, some explain it better and in more detail than others. Again, I wasn't looking for opinions on one website or on GB's personality or his "work", more like the power of Chi and its uses for healing and its other forms and/or names like prana etc. Would love to know more about CT as well, maybe anyone here practising?

Yes, there is a whole bunch of crappy websites saying pretty much the same thing, this is true.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

As I have shown, what data tells us is many people who decide they know more than their doctors does tends to end up dead.

That is what I have been able to prove. No number of crappy websites can prove squat about the claims made though.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#27    Rolci

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 03:59 AM

No one can be expected to go and investigate every account of a miraculous (read: not understood by western science) healing. All you can do is listen to and read all the accounts. If you don't want to believe it all you need to do is to say to yourself that they are all lying or something. When you're the experiencer, all you can do is share your story, quote how the doctors guaranteed that you have no more than 2 months to live and describe how baffled they were when there was no sign if disease in your body when you went for a check-up. When you're the doctor telling the story, you'll just be told that you must've made a mistake in the diagnosis. There are just far too many accounts to be all lies. Far too many.

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#28    Rolci

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 12:29 AM

On an important note, how exactly does western medicine explain the placebo effect? I love how skeptics can't get out of this one, as it is science FACT, even though it is obviously mind over matter. So if you believe it works, it does. So why wouldn't the laying on of hands work? Or psychic surgery? Which century do we need to reach before the power of the mind is properly researched, documented and become general knowledge? Useless (read:no more effective than sugar pills) medicines are kind of expensive, health systems like the British NHS are in financial crisis, what are we waiting for?

Best piece of truth I have found so far: http://llresearch.or...of_one_pdf.aspx
A truly free society: https://sites.google...t-economy-today
The true history of our planet: http://www.floating-...rth_history.htm
Dialogues with The Absolute: unveiledsecretsandmessagesoflight.blogspot (dot) co (dot) uk/2011/08/eon-11aug2010.html
A wealth of metaphysical readings with a surprisingly high ratio of truth content: soulwise (dot) net/index-00.htm

#29    Rafterman

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 11:01 AM

View PostRolci, on 28 July 2014 - 12:29 AM, said:

On an important note, how exactly does western medicine explain the placebo effect? I love how skeptics can't get out of this one, as it is science FACT, even though it is obviously mind over matter. So if you believe it works, it does. So why wouldn't the laying on of hands work? Or psychic surgery? Which century do we need to reach before the power of the mind is properly researched, documented and become general knowledge? Useless (read:no more effective than sugar pills) medicines are kind of expensive, health systems like the British NHS are in financial crisis, what are we waiting for?

Here you go:  http://www.scienceba...placebo-effect/

Just because you underwent some kind of woo therapy that made you "feel" better for a few hours is not medicine.  Neither are anecdotes and stories substitutes for observable research.

Edited by Rafterman, 29 July 2014 - 11:02 AM.

"You can't have freedom of religion without having freedom from the religious beliefs of other people."

#30    Rolci

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 11:36 AM

View PostRafterman, on 29 July 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

Here you go:  http://www.scienceba...placebo-effect/

Just because you underwent some kind of woo therapy that made you "feel" better for a few hours is not medicine.  Neither are anecdotes and stories substitutes for observable research.

I have a better link, the British NHS itself:

http://www.nhs.uk/Li...ebo-effect.aspx

Some quotes:

The placebo effect is an example of how our expectations and beliefs can cause real change in our physical bodies. It’s a phenomenon that we don’t completely understand. But we can see it working in all kinds of ways, and all kinds of circumstances.
...
Placebo medicine has even been shown to cause stomach ulcers to heal faster than they otherwise would.
These amazing results show that the placebo effect is real, and powerful. They mean that fake or placebo treatments can cause real improvements in health conditions: improvements we can see with our own eyes.

Experiencing the placebo effect is not the same as being 'tricked', or being foolish. The effect can happen to everyone, however intelligent, and whether they know about the placebo effect or not.


And as for the link you gave, I must thank you, it made me think for the first time about how much of the conventional medicines must have healing effects solely due to the PE. Which are, of course sold for money. Of course we're told they have this and that chemical in it, and it's been tested and proven. Of course, the subjects during the test expected to get better so they did. In spite of all that it's funny how ineffective chemo- and radiation therapy are even though the patients have faith in them (otherwise they wouldn't take the treatment, maybe because they have seen The Cancer Conspiracy documentary or discovered the grim truth about these therapies from websites like naturalnews.com/042563_chemotherapy_cancer_growth_treatment_resistance.html ) Guess you do create your reality after all.

Edited by Rolci, 29 July 2014 - 11:54 AM.

Best piece of truth I have found so far: http://llresearch.or...of_one_pdf.aspx
A truly free society: https://sites.google...t-economy-today
The true history of our planet: http://www.floating-...rth_history.htm
Dialogues with The Absolute: unveiledsecretsandmessagesoflight.blogspot (dot) co (dot) uk/2011/08/eon-11aug2010.html
A wealth of metaphysical readings with a surprisingly high ratio of truth content: soulwise (dot) net/index-00.htm




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