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New Dan Carlin Common Sense

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#1    Neognosis

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 04:38 PM

http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/cs


IMO, he really hit the nail on the head....

Especially at the end, where he hypothesizes that if the US did not get involved in WWI, there would have been no 9/11.

And his assertion that the founding fathers warned us against involvement in foreign affairs and the hazards of making alliances.

Really good. Even when I disagree with Dan Carlin, he presents his points in such a  way that I find myself rethinking my ideas instead of just getting defensive.


#2    Babe Ruth

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 06:29 PM

Great picture of the boat wake! :tu:

I don't get podcasts.


#3    third_eye

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 07:15 PM

If humans never invented flags ... we won't be needing to wear underpants ~

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#4    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 10:41 PM

We'd all be speaking German if you hadn't gotten involved in foreign affairs.
A dominate Germany would have found a way to either grind a "uninvolved" America into submission or just simply invaded after defeating the rest of Europe and Russia. Best case scenario would have been a Cold War between the Axis rest of the world and America (assuming America could have defeated the Japanese without Fortress Australia, which being a British Colony would have said "bog off" without American promises of help for the Mother Country).

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

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#5    shadowsot

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Posted 15 December 2013 - 10:44 PM

View PostSir Wearer of Hats, on 15 December 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

We'd all be speaking German if you hadn't gotten involved in foreign affairs.
A dominate Germany would have found a way to either grind a "uninvolved" America into submission or just simply invaded after defeating the rest of Europe and Russia. Best case scenario would have been a Cold War between the Axis rest of the world and America (assuming America could have defeated the Japanese without Fortress Australia, which being a British Colony would have said "bog off" without American promises of help for the Mother Country).
I haven't had a chance to listen to this weeks episode yet, but I think his stance is acknowledging that there were points where we had to get involved. However, getting involved does have repercussions and this is what we were seeing.

I enjoy Dan Carlin, I probably fall more on the liberal side of the left right divide but he's one of the people who is able to offer what I see as fair insights and criticisms without delving into hyperbole.
His history programs are great too.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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#6    Purifier

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 12:17 AM

View PostSir Wearer of Hats, on 15 December 2013 - 10:41 PM, said:

We'd all be speaking German if you hadn't gotten involved in foreign affairs.
A dominate Germany would have found a way to either grind a "uninvolved" America into submission or just simply invaded after defeating the rest of Europe and Russia. Best case scenario would have been a Cold War between the Axis rest of the world and America (assuming America could have defeated the Japanese without Fortress Australia, which being a British Colony would have said "bog off" without American promises of help for the Mother Country).


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#7    shadowsot

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 12:20 AM

Thinking bout it, with how insane Hitler ended up going he'd have probably ended up getting run over by Russia. We might have avoided the cold war entirely. I wonder if the SSR would have collapsed so suddenly if they hadn't focused their economy towards trying to out compete the Americans.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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#8    Thanato

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 01:46 AM

Germany would still have been destroyed by the Red Army.

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#9    Neognosis

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 01:47 AM

Quote

We'd all be speaking German if you hadn't gotten involved in foreign affairs.
A dominate Germany would have found a way to either grind a "uninvolved" America into submission or just simply invaded after defeating the rest of Europe and Russia. Best case scenario would have been a Cold War between the Axis rest of the world and America (assuming America could have defeated the Japanese without Fortress Australia, which being a British Colony would have said "bog off" without American promises of help for the Mother Country).

I disagree.

To paraphrase Carlin:

You don't have the US enter WWI, then you don't have the treaty of versailles. You end up with a german led european union around 90 years earlier than it's happening. You don't have Versailles, you don't have the Nazi's. You don't have the Nazis, you don't have the holocaust or pearl harbor. You don't have the US and Great Britain dividing up the middle east along lines of convenience. You don't have Russia invading afghanistan, you don't have the US backing the Mujahideen.... which gave us Osama Bin Ladin. Who brought us 9/11.

I also disagree with you about a dominant Germany victorious in Europe in 1918 wanting to pull the US into a european conflict. I also don't think that the Germany of 1914 was even looking to rule all of Europe. The Germany that went to war in 1914 was NOT the Nazi Germany that went to war in 1939.


#10    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 01:48 AM

View PostThanato, on 16 December 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

Germany would still have been destroyed by the Red Army.
Russia needed the distraction of D-Day to fortify Moscow and bolster the army.
Alternatively, we'd all be Commies because the only reason the Russians stopped I Berlin was because the Allies we on their way to Berlin as well.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

You may think you're cool, but you'll never be as cool as Peter Capaldi with an electric guitar, on a tank, playing the Doctor Who theme.

#11    Neognosis

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 01:49 AM

Quote

Germany would still have been destroyed by the Red Army.

I think that our world wars are getting a bit mixed up. If we did not get involved in WWI, then there would be no reason for the red army to fight the germans in WWII anyway, there would be no WWII. And no reason for a newly communist Russia to necessarily come into conflict with a German dominated Europe, eh?


#12    andy4

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 08:44 PM

The Russians beat the Germans into submission, not the USA. Sure lend-lease helped, but Britain also stopped Germany more so than we did. The Russians and Germans lost more people in Stalingrad alone than the USA did fighting all of ww2, including the Japanese, and that was just one battle. Not saying we didn't contribute, but as far as Germany goes, we just provided some material and a helpful, but at that point, unnecessary distraction. I meant to imply at the point of d-day. But we really helped out when we invaded North Africa.

But if the article is implying that if we weren't involved in ww2, 9/11 wouldn't have happened, I can agree with that. We certainly wouldn't have bases all over the world, post ww2, which the middle eastern countries don't seem to agree with, hence 9/11. But remember, the Japanese attacked us, then a few days later Germany declared war on us. We obviously couldn't stay neutral at that point.

Edited by andy4, 16 December 2013 - 08:59 PM.

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#13    Neognosis

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 12:57 AM

No, no no.

The part of the podcast hypothesized that if we did not get involved in WORLD WAR ONE, there would have been no 9/11

ONE.


As for WWII, I'm not sure how you can say that the US was just a distraction... Germany held almost all of Europe and had pushed the british back onto their island, and was firebombing them to a slow and very painful death. Had the US not entered WWII, there is no way that Great Britain would have prevailed.


Another part of CArlin's podcast that I really liked was his assertion that most americans think that our history with Iran started in the 1970's with the islamic revolution and the taking of the american hostages, and are blissfully ignorant of the events that precipated that.


#14    MiskatonicGrad

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 02:26 AM

View Postandy4, on 16 December 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

The Russians beat the Germans into submission, not the USA. Sure lend-lease helped, but Britain also stopped Germany more so than we did. The Russians and Germans lost more people in Stalingrad alone than the USA did fighting all of ww2, including the Japanese, and that was just one battle. Not saying we didn't contribute, but as far as Germany goes, we just provided some material and a helpful, but at that point, unnecessary distraction. I meant to imply at the point of d-day. But we really helped out when we invaded North Africa.

But if the article is implying that if we weren't involved in ww2, 9/11 wouldn't have happened, I can agree with that. We certainly wouldn't have bases all over the world, post ww2, which the middle eastern countries don't seem to agree with, hence 9/11. But remember, the Japanese attacked us, then a few days later Germany declared war on us. We obviously couldn't stay neutral at that point.

"Nobody ever won a war by dying for his country, he won it by making the other poor dumb b****** die for his." Gen George S. Patton. I weep over your small view of history.

If the U.S. didn't get involved in WWI Germany more than likely would have stopped at Europe maybe England.

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#15    andy4

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 05:40 AM

View PostNeognosis, on 17 December 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:

No, no no.

The part of the podcast hypothesized that if we did not get involved in WORLD WAR ONE, there would have been no 9/11

ONE.


As for WWII, I'm not sure how you can say that the US was just a distraction... Germany held almost all of Europe and had pushed the british back onto their island, and was firebombing them to a slow and very painful death. Had the US not entered WWII, there is no way that Great Britain would have prevailed.


Another part of CArlin's podcast that I really liked was his assertion that most americans think that our history with Iran started in the 1970's with the islamic revolution and the taking of the american hostages, and are blissfully ignorant of the events that precipated that.

I don't know that much about ww1, so I'll have to get back to you on that one.

I think had Germany not invaded Russia then Britain certainly would have been crushed, and operation sea lion would have came instead of Barbarossa. But it wasn't that way, and Barbarossa was before America was involved, June of 1941 I believe. Russia really saved Britain from Germany, not the USA. 60% of Germans were fighting on the eastern front in 1945, against Russia alone, and only 40% were fighting against the coalition that invaded on d-day. Germany lost a great deal of skilled pilots in the Battle of Britain, and Britain did too, but they happened to have radar earlier, which helped alot in their case. The USA or Russia for that matter, didn't come around until almost a year later, yet Britain still prevailed. Sea Lion was cancelled before Barbarossa even started, because the Royal Air Force was becoming impregnable during the daylight hours. That's a huge advantage.

Edited by andy4, 17 December 2013 - 06:00 AM.

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