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Dead Weight Platform Launches :(


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#1    davros of skaro

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 05:44 PM

Dead Weight Platform Launches are so 1960's

Do we really need the "OOOOHS & AAAGHS" of traditional launches when there is a cheaper
way in the long run?

Traditional space launches should be looked upon as one would see a Biplane for aviation
imho.

Airplane launch platforms are nothing new, but hardly used (as far as I know.)

If I want to see a rocket launch, then I will just buy a rocket kit from the hobby shop
(Estes is a good brand.)

I do not know how often alternative space launch vehicles occur, but I think we need to
say goodbye to tradition.

What do you think, and please take the time to watch the videos first (this is our
future)...Thanks





Edited by davros of skaro, 18 December 2013 - 06:02 PM.

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#2    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 06:01 PM

That's an awful lot of words to say nothing davros.

Prey tell, what are these cheaper alternative launchers?

If there really were available, cheaper alternatives don't you think they would be in use?

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#3    davros of skaro

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 06:08 PM

View PostWaspie_Dwarf, on 18 December 2013 - 06:01 PM, said:

That's an awful lot of words to say nothing davros.

Prey tell, what are these cheaper alternative launchers?

If there really were available, cheaper alternatives don't you think they would be in use?

Airplane launch platforms A.L.P.

Can you atleast watch the first video? -.-

Do you actually think thrift is in the minds of Government agencies????????? o.O

It's we that have to shake things around here, but rolling over playing dead is the norm.

Edited by davros of skaro, 18 December 2013 - 06:31 PM.

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#4    davros of skaro

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 06:32 PM

It's cheaper to launch a space vehicle from a modified, or specificly built airplane.A plane taxi's down the runway till enough lift is generated from thrust for take off.A rocket is dead weight for a vertical take off, and much more thrust is needed to get it off the ground.If dead weight vertical take off was efficient then every airport would be launch pads instead of runways.Look how long the outdated Shuttle program was dragged along.You have seen the 747 carrying the Enterprise, but that set up was not for orbital launch, but for transportation, and test landing missions.According to the 1st video it takes $100,000 per weight of a Gallon of water for a traditional launch, while an airplane launch platform A.L.P costs $5,500 for the same weight.

People are ingrained into the traditional launch platform of dead weight launch.

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#5    Xynoplas

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 06:40 PM

Let me know when you get your degree in aeronautical engineering. You seem to be a bright lad.

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#6    davros of skaro

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 06:45 PM

Here is more of the Orbital Sciences Pegasus XL rocket.



Animation showing the launch of the IRIS satellite aboard an Orbital Sciences Pegasus XL rocket carried to space by Orbital's Stargazer L-1011 commercial transport aircraft modified to serve as the launch platform; the various Pegasus rocket stage separations and the eventual deployment of the IRIS satellite.



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#7    davros of skaro

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 06:47 PM

View PostXynoplas, on 18 December 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

Let me know when you get your degree in aeronautical engineering. You seem to be a bright lad.

Let me know when you realize being fleeced is not a good thing.

I does not take rocket science to see the difference, but it takes a shock to the system to not trust everything one is told from authority.

Edited by davros of skaro, 18 December 2013 - 06:53 PM.

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#8    davros of skaro

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 07:11 PM

Enterprise first test flight 1977.

Further modifications to the 747, additional boosters for the Shuttle, and not only cheaper spaceflights, but the Challenger/Columbia dead weight launch problems would never have had happened.

Just look at the conceptual artwork from that era, but they went with traditional rocket launches.


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Edited by davros of skaro, 18 December 2013 - 07:24 PM.

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#9    Yes_Man

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 07:51 PM

Ok so how are you going to use a flawed plan and turn that to a working plan?


#10    toast

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 07:55 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 18 December 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

Enterprise first test flight 1977.
Further modifications to the 747, additional boosters for the Shuttle, and not only cheaper spaceflights, but the Challenger/Columbia dead weight launch problems would never have had happened. Just look at the conceptual artwork from that era, but they went with traditional rocket launches.

Impossible.
The Space Shuttle system was created to lift up a payload of 16-25tons into orbit. The orbiter had a ttl wght of approx 110tons including payload. To reach the escape velocity of 11km/sec, to lift this 110tons into orbit, a propellant amount of approx 1700tons was required. Even when a lower ammount of propellant would be required if the start had been done at an altitude at 12km, no aircraft ever is able to lift up such wght.

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#11    davros of skaro

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 07:15 PM

View Posttoast, on 18 December 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

Impossible.
The Space Shuttle system was created to lift up a payload of 16-25tons into orbit. The orbiter had a ttl wght of approx 110tons including payload. To reach the escape velocity of 11km/sec, to lift this 110tons into orbit, a propellant amount of approx 1700tons was required. Even when a lower ammount of propellant would be required if the start had been done at an altitude at 12km, no aircraft ever is able to lift up such wght.

Impossible because that is what you are led to believe?

The Antonov An-225 Mriya (NATO "Cossack") is a cargo aircraft that has a maximum gross
payload of 559,577 lbs or 253.8199 tons (it's a worlds record holder.)

This airplane was used to transport the Soviet shuttle Buran like the Boeing 747 that was
modified to transport the Enterprise shuttle.

Gross liftoff weight of the Shuttle Orbiter is 240,000 lbs or 108.8622 tons

Maximum payload of the Shuttle Orbiter is 55,250 lb or 25.06098 tons

Gross weight of shuttle orbiter, and max payload combined is 295,250 lbs or 133.9231

This leaves enough weight (264,327 lbs or 119.8967 tons) for a jettisonable tank for the
shuttle orbiter for it's main engines to feed off of that the Antonov can carry all
together.

You know how high altitude climbers need oxygen tanks with them?This is because the
atmosphere is thinner at higher altitudes.Higher altitudes are less dense, and have less
drag on jet aircraft.Air launched space vehicles do not need the extra bulk of
propellents for a ground level denser atmosphere dead weight lift off.

NASA was going to do this, but opted for the "OOOOHS & AAAAGHS" of a traditional launch.

Russia was going to use the Antonov for the MAKS (Multipurpose aerospace system) with
their Buran shuttle program, but the Soviet Union fell.

This system is possible, and saves on costs in the long run.The future of spaceflight is
the air launch to orbit platform system.Just look at the pictures, and videos I posted,
get your head out of old black & white sci fi movies, and stop being so trusting of
government.Space is mankinds future, but who is directing this future?

This is possible, but why are you people saying it's impossible is the serious question?

Remember less propellent (weight) is needed with a running start, and less drag at higher
altitudes.

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#12    davros of skaro

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 07:16 PM

View PostThe New Richard Nixon, on 18 December 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

Ok so how are you going to use a flawed plan and turn that to a working plan?

You should tell Sir Richard Branson that (derp.)
http://www.virgingalactic.com/



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#13    toast

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 09:22 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 19 December 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Impossible because that is what you are led to believe?

My conclusion is based on facts, not on belief.

View Postdavros of skaro, on 19 December 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

The Antonov An-225 Mriya (NATO "Cossack") is a cargo aircraft that has a maximum gross
payload of 559,577 lbs or 253.8199 tons (it's a worlds record holder.)

I´m aware of these facts already, so no need for information about these here.

View Postdavros of skaro, on 19 December 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

This airplane was used to transport the Soviet shuttle Buran like the Boeing 747 that was modified to transport the Enterprise shuttle.

I´m aware of these facts already, so no need for information about here.

View Postdavros of skaro, on 19 December 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Gross liftoff weight of the Shuttle Orbiter is 240,000 lbs or 108.8622 tons

Value depends on payload weight and targeted orbit.

View Postdavros of skaro, on 19 December 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Maximum payload of the Shuttle Orbiter is 55,250 lb or 25.06098 tons

Value depends on targeted orbit.

View Postdavros of skaro, on 19 December 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Gross weight of shuttle orbiter, and max payload combined is 295,250 lbs or 133.9231

Value depends on payload weight and targeted orbit.

View Postdavros of skaro, on 19 December 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

This leaves enough weight (264,327 lbs or 119.8967 tons) for a jettisonable tank for the shuttle orbiter for it's main engines to feed off of that the Antonov can carry alltogether.

Your math is funny, but wrong. To keep it simple, let say 1L propellant is 1kg. The propellant burn rate of the SSMEs is approx. 224.000L per minute. So, 120tons will last for an approx. 32sec burn of the SSMEs. In that short period of time, the Shuttle cannot be accelerated to the required escape velocity of approx.11km/sec.

View Postdavros of skaro, on 19 December 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

You know how high altitude climbers need oxygen tanks with them? This is because the atmosphere is thinner at higher altitudes.

You didn´t understood the mode of operation of liquid-propellant rockets. Liquid-propellant rockets never use atmospheric oxygen. So you have to ask yourself a question, not me.

View Postdavros of skaro, on 19 December 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

This is possible, but why are you people saying it's impossible is the serious question?

You claimed “the NASA was going to do this, but opted for the "OOOOHS &amp; AAAAGHS" of a traditional launch”, so the orbiter in discussion is the NASA Space Shuttle. You claimed the NASA Space Shuttle can be aircraft launched. Both claims art incorrect.
Conclusion: It is impossible to accelerate an air launched orbiter with a wght of 110tons to the required escape velocity of 11km/sec, launched from an aircraft with a payload of  253tons. Period.

Edited by toast, 19 December 2013 - 09:25 PM.

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#14    ColoradoParanormal

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 09:55 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 19 December 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

Impossible because that is what you are led to believe?

The Antonov An-225 Mriya (NATO "Cossack") is a cargo aircraft that has a maximum gross
payload of 559,577 lbs or 253.8199 tons (it's a worlds record holder.)

This airplane was used to transport the Soviet shuttle Buran like the Boeing 747 that was
modified to transport the Enterprise shuttle.

Gross liftoff weight of the Shuttle Orbiter is 240,000 lbs or 108.8622 tons

Maximum payload of the Shuttle Orbiter is 55,250 lb or 25.06098 tons

Gross weight of shuttle orbiter, and max payload combined is 295,250 lbs or 133.9231

This leaves enough weight (264,327 lbs or 119.8967 tons) for a jettisonable tank for the
shuttle orbiter for it's main engines to feed off of that the Antonov can carry all
together.

You know how high altitude climbers need oxygen tanks with them?This is because the
atmosphere is thinner at higher altitudes.Higher altitudes are less dense, and have less
drag on jet aircraft.Air launched space vehicles do not need the extra bulk of
propellents for a ground level denser atmosphere dead weight lift off.

NASA was going to do this, but opted for the "OOOOHS & AAAAGHS" of a traditional launch.

Russia was going to use the Antonov for the MAKS (Multipurpose aerospace system) with
their Buran shuttle program, but the Soviet Union fell.

This system is possible, and saves on costs in the long run.The future of spaceflight is
the air launch to orbit platform system.Just look at the pictures, and videos I posted,
get your head out of old black & white sci fi movies, and stop being so trusting of
government.Space is mankinds future, but who is directing this future?

This is possible, but why are you people saying it's impossible is the serious question?

Remember less propellent (weight) is needed with a running start, and less drag at higher
altitudes.

"for the MAKS (Multipurpose aerospace system)" -- Where's the 'K' in this? Shouldn't it be 'MAS?'  :P


#15    toast

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 10:19 PM

View PostColoradoParanormal, on 19 December 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

"for the MAKS (Multipurpose aerospace system)" -- Where's the 'K' in this? Shouldn't it be 'MAS?'  :P

MAKS is from russian language.

Edited by toast, 19 December 2013 - 10:22 PM.

"I think enormous harm is done by religion – not just in the name of religion, but actually by religion." - Steven Weinberg -  
"Don't kill the golden goose." - Malcolm McLaren -
"I am discounting the reports of UFOs. Why would they appear only to cranks and weirdos?" - Stephen Hawking -
"I will give you my finest hour, oh yeah!" - Blondie -




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