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US Army War College to take down Confederate


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#1    Drayno

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 07:34 PM

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http://www.washingto...-face-a/?page=1

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During the inventory, an unidentified official — not the commandant, Maj. Gen. Anthony A. Cucolo III — asked the administration why the college honors two generals who fought against the United States, college spokeswoman Carol Kerr said.


“I do know at least one person has questioned why we would honor individuals who were enemies of the United States Army,” Ms. Kerr said. “There will be a dialogue when we develop the idea of what do we want the hallway to represent.”

She said one faculty member took down the portraits of Lee and Jackson and put them on the floor as part of the inventory process. That gave rise to rumors that the paintings had been removed.


“This person was struck by the fact we have quite a few Confederate images,” she said, adding that the portraits were rehung on a third-floor hallway. “[Lee] was certainly not good for the nation. This is the guy we faced on the battlefield whose entire purpose in life was to destroy the nation as it was then conceived. … This is all part of an informed discussion.”



I'll take the position of defending both Stonewall and Lee.


Both opposed Slavery in their personal views.


Both were tactical geniuses and should be viewed as shining examples of American-produced field officers.


I think they should be honored; they didn't fight for Slavery, they fought for States' Rights.


"Let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings."
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#2    Agent0range

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 07:38 PM

They most certainly should be honored.  The civil war and these men are a very important part of our history.  They may have fought against the "winning" side, but they were Americans who fought for what they believed in, and that should be respected.


#3    OverSword

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 07:48 PM

By this logic the descedants of the southern states are all the descendants of traitors.


#4    spartan max2

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 07:58 PM

what??? not stonewall :cry:

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#5    Lilly

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:19 PM

This is not a good idea IMO. History is what it is, people in the past did what they felt was right and honorable. To take down the portraits of Lee and Jackson diminishes the history of our country.

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#6    Child of Bast

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:42 PM

Well sure let's just rewrite the parts of history we disagree with and pretend they never happened.Then again, history is always written and rewritten by the victors, so it's not surprising that the North wants to do this.

Edited by Child of Bast, 18 December 2013 - 08:45 PM.

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#7    Taun

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:15 PM

Both Lee and Jackson had exemplary military carears prior to the civil war - in fact at the very beginning Lee was offered the command of the Army of the Potomac...
Neither men conducted a war of terror or mass destruction - both strived to limit civilian damage, and both continued to hold the admiration and respect of their
enemies through out the war...

Neither fought to destroy the United States ... The US would have continued had the Confederates won independance...  There is more justification in vilifiying
General Sherman for his "March to the Sea" (and his later treatment of Native Americans) than there is to vilifying either Lee or Jackson...

Edited by Taun, 18 December 2013 - 09:16 PM.


#8    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:55 PM

I was going to say "bet Sherman's not been taken down, despite being responsible for more civilian deaths then some natural disasters",

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#9    MiskatonicGrad

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 12:01 AM

It sounds like this Ms. Kerr needs to sit in on some of the classes the teach at the Army war college instead of trying to bad mouth two of the most respected Generals ever produced by West Point. destroy the nation? the north invaded the south! What a idiot. If they wanted to do some good they should take Grant, Sherman, and Sheridan down and burn them on the front lawn. their introduction of "Total War" has damaged society far more than anything Lee or Stonewall did.

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#10    Rafterman

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 12:40 AM

Should we also dig up all of the Confederate graves and tear down the statue at Arlington National Cemetary?

They are a part of military history in the United States.  Their tactics are still studied at the AWC.

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#11    Taun

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 02:54 AM

 Rafterman, on 19 December 2013 - 12:40 AM, said:

Should we also dig up all of the Confederate graves and tear down the statue at Arlington National Cemetary?

They are a part of military history in the United States.  Their tactics are still studied at the AWC.

Jackson was a Professor of Tactics at the Virginia Military Institute (VMI - which is also a Prep school for West Point) prior to the Civil War and his material is still taught as
essential tactical studies... Extremely few tacticians prior to the 20th century are still required study material....  This individual who wants them 'removed' clearly has absolutely
no grasp of the overall situation...

Edited by Taun, 19 December 2013 - 02:55 AM.


#12    Drayno

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 04:29 AM

 Taun, on 19 December 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

Jackson was a Professor of Tactics at the Virginia Military Institute (VMI - which is also a Prep school for West Point) prior to the Civil War and his material is still taught as
essential tactical studies... Extremely few tacticians prior to the 20th century are still required study material....  This individual who wants them 'removed' clearly has absolutely
no grasp of the overall situation...

This is true. My grandfather graduated from VMI in 57' and studied Stonewall's tactics used in the Shenandoah Campaign.

"Let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings."
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#13    Yamato

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 07:44 AM

Maybe they should be honored but why must enemies of the US Army be honored in the US Army War College?   Taking down portraits isn't taking down history.  These men's roles are cemented permanently in US history and will never be forgotten.   Their images are carved into the side of a mountain.  I think we're safe.

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#14    Taun

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 05:01 PM

 Yamato, on 22 December 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

Maybe they should be honored but why must enemies of the US Army be honored in the US Army War College?   Taking down portraits isn't taking down history.  These men's roles are cemented permanently in US history and will never be forgotten.   Their images are carved into the side of a mountain.  I think we're safe.

The true question is were they really enemies?... Up until that point the US was referred to as "These United States" (Plural) following the war it is "The United States" (singular).... These men were
fighting for many reasons but the chief reason for many of them was the question were they Citizens of their respective States? Or of the US? Up until then the general population saw the states as
sovereign states in an economic/cultural union... They saw themselves as "Virginians" or "New Yorkers" more often than they saw themselves as citizens of the "United States" - rather like todays EU
I guess......  When they offered the command of the Union Army to Lee he said "As Virginia goes, I shall go"...

So were they enemies of the Union or were they honorable citizens of their sovereign states?... Yes they fought against Union troops so by that definition they were "enemies", but were they "enemies"
or more along the lines of  "belligerents"?

As to honoring Enemies of the US Army in the Army War college... The purpose of the College is not to honor or to dishonor military persons regardless of nation... But to study their Tactics,
strategies and their Logistics methods...

The bit I am posting below is from the US Army War College web site and is an excerpt from Maj Gen Tony Cucolo, the commandant of the War College, hopefully that will answer every ones questions:

"Response to discussion about Confederate artwork --
A Sincere note to our Alumni, friends, and all concerned regarding questions about Confederate art:
Major General Tony Cucolo here, Commandant of the US Army War College. I’d like to address an issue that has come up based on a Washington Times web posting and article in its paper of 18 December 2013.
Even though last night's posting had a photo at the top of that article showing a picture of one of our entry gates with huge statues of Robert E. Lee and Thomas J. Jackson mounted on horseback on either side of the sign, and today's posting showed a dignified photo of Robert E. Lee at the top of the article, it might be misleading as to what is in question. For what it is worth, I must tell you there is only one outside statue on Carlisle Barracks and that is of Frederick the Great. There is no statue of Lee, there is no statue of Jackson; that picture is photo-shopped – I assume to attract attention to the article. We do however have many small monuments, mostly stone with bronze plaques, but those are for a variety of reasons. There are small memorials to the service of British units (during the French and Indian War), memorials of Army schools that had been based at Carlisle Barracks over the last two-plus centuries, memorials to Carlisle Indian Industrial School students and significant personalities of that period from 1879 – 1918, a memorial for US Army War College graduates killed in action since 2001 and more. We do not have any public memorials to the Confederacy, but we do have signs on the walking tour of the base that will tell you for a few days during the Civil War, three North Carolina Brigades camped on the parade ground and then burned down the post (save one building) as they departed on July 1st, 1863, to rejoin Lee’s forces at Gettysburg. We also do not have any large stand-alone portraits of Robert E. Lee or Stonewall Jackson.
So, no statues or big portraits, but a recent event here sparked the reporter’s and other public interest in the topic of the article, which I find makes a good point – for topics like this, have a thoughtful conversation before making a decision."

(bolding and underlining done by me for emphasis- Taun)
http://www.carlisle....cle.cfm?id=3289

Edited by Taun, 22 December 2013 - 05:06 PM.


#15    Drayno

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 09:24 PM

As Taun stated very eloquently, being so soon after America's inception, many of the states saw themselves as members of a voluntary union. As a Virginian, I see myself as a Virginian first, American second. Perhaps that's because I have a strong connection with this land, as my ancestors arrived here in the early 1700's. Lee, whom I am related to (My great-great-Aunt's grandfather was Lee's first cousin and was his body double in his portraits), saw himself as a Virginian first. Lincoln offered him to lead the Union forces as he distinguished himself in the Mexican-American war and knew his tactical prowess. As Taun stated, Lee was heavily conflicted - his father, Light Horse Harry Lee was a founding father, and he knew a civil war would tear the fabric of the country apart. He decided to stand by his principles, as what else could you do when you hear the land you love, your family, and friends, are all going to be targeted by an invading force made up of your own countrymen?

This country was founded upon the studying of 2,000 years of political science and history. Many of the founding fathers knew how easily governments could become despotic. That was why, in the Declaration of Independence, they pointed it sometimes it was necessary to abolish the bonds one has with a destructive government. Although you can take a Federalist or Anti-Federalist stance (I agree with many Federalist principles proposed by Alexander Hamilton), both agreed on the nature of government. Even Alexander Hamilton, a staunch Federalist, viewed the Second Amendment and militia as instruments to battle a despotic government with over-reaching power. The Confederacy was the embodiment of the old United States - the principle of voluntarily seceding from a government viewed to be destructive. Since, at the time, there was the debate on whether or the newer states being added, as more and more territories were acquired, should be free states or slave states - it is clear the Civil War doesn't have to do with slavery - as many progressives would assert - it has to do with the right of a state to have its own regional government (which is what a federal government is - enterprising regional governments combining to create a central government), govern its own people, and pass its own laws, and to have a degree of sovereignty; to be able to leave and join a federal union voluntarily.

Both Stonewall and Lee did what they could with the beliefs they held, and obviously chose a course of action that led them to be held in contempt and infamy in the North in the reconstruction period. However, many people in the North viewed Lee as a respectful figure for standing by his principles and for his unmatched leadership - as he often would be fighting on the front lines in the same vain George Washington did. Nonetheless, history is written by the victor. ;)

"Let us sit upon the ground and tell sad stories of the death of kings."
- William Shakespeare, Richard II, Act III, Scene II
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