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#1    third_eye

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:46 AM

Quote

CHAP. V.

In which Eve makes a noble and emotionable intercession, taking the blame on herself.

THEN Adam and Eve entered the cave, and stood praying, in their own tongue, unknown to us, but which they knew well.


...
    

8 And Adam said to Eve, "Look at thine eyes, and at mine, which afore beheld angels in heaven, praising; and they, too, without ceasing.

9 "But now we do not see as we did: our eyes have become of flesh; they cannot see in like manner as they saw before."

10 Adam said again to Eve, "What is our body to-day, compared to what it was in former days, when we dwelt in the garden?"


CHAP. VI.

God's admonition to Adam and Eve in which he points out how and why they sinned.

1 BUT God looked upon them; for they had killed themselves through great grief.

2 But He would raise them and comfort them.

3 He, therefore, sent His Word unto them; that they should stand and be raised forthwith.

4 And the Lord said unto Adam and Eve, "You transgressed of your own free will, until you came out of the garden in which I had placed you.

5 "Of your own free will have you transgressed through your desire for divinity, greatness, and an exalted state, such as I have; so that I deprived you of the bright nature in which you then were, and I made you come out of the garden to this land, rough and full of trouble.

6 "If only you had not transgressed My commandment and had kept My law, and had not eaten of the fruit of the tree, near which I told you not to come! And there were fruit trees in the garden better than that one.

7 "But the wicked Satan who continued not in his first estate, nor kept his faith; in whom was no good intent towards Me, and who though I had created him, yet set Me at naught, and sought the Godhead, so that I hurled him down from heaven, -- he it is who made the tree appear pleasant in your eyes, until you ate of it, by hearkening to him.

8 "Thus have you transgressed My commandment, and therefore have I brought upon you all these sorrows.

9 "For I am God the Creator, who, when I created My creatures, did not intend to destroy them. But after they had sorely roused My anger, I punished them with grievous plagues, until they repent.

10 "But, if on the contrary, they still continue hardened in their transgression, they shall be under a curse for ever."


( The Forgotten Books of Eden, p. age 210 )
The Forgotten Books of Eden, by Rutherford H. Platt, Jr., [1926], at sacred-texts.com


~emphasis mine

Was reading through this again this morning and noticed the parts in bold that never made much an impression on me before ....


Quote

THEN Adam and Eve entered the cave, and stood praying, in their own tongue, unknown to us, but which they knew well.

Civilisation ? Adam and Eve spoke a language ... it seems that we understand when God speaks but apparently here ... Adam and Eve spoke in a tongue 'unknown to us' .... Usually texts of those ages 'tongue' means 'language'

This one what caught my eye most of all -

Quote

8 And Adam said to Eve, "Look at thine eyes, and at mine, which afore beheld angels in heaven, praising; and they, too, without ceasing.

9 "But now we do not see as we did: our eyes have become of flesh; they cannot see in like manner as they saw before."

10 Adam said again to Eve, "What is our body to-day, compared to what it was in former days, when we dwelt in the garden?"


Anyone has an opinion on what this ' our eyes have become of flesh; they cannot see in like manner as they saw before.' might mean ?



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#2    eight bits

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 05:40 PM

My takes:

Quote

Civilisation ? Adam and Eve spoke a language ... it seems that we understand when God speaks but apparently here ... Adam and Eve spoke in a tongue 'unknown to us' .... Usually texts of those ages 'tongue' means 'language'
No, idioglossia. Humans make language when young (Adam and Eve are, at best, anomalous adults), provided it is humans, plural. A sad, but dramatic modern case (searchable) is Poto and Cabengo (Grace and Virginia Kennedy).

Quote

Anyone has an opinion on what this ' our eyes have become of flesh; they cannot see in like manner as they saw before.' might mean ?
As I recall, Adam and Eve were reputed to see God before ... well, whatever your take on what happened in Genesis 2 and 3 might happen to be.

I understand this material to be medieval Christian in origin. It would be the party line by then that the Genesis snake was the Christian Devil (or possessed by him), and so the effects of displaying gorwn-up independence would be piously described as diminshed cognitive capacity. The "flesh" was also little esteemed at the time. Or so some of them said for publication.

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#3    third_eye

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:30 PM

View Posteight bits, on 23 December 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

My takes:


No, idioglossia. Humans make language when young (Adam and Eve are, at best, anomalous adults), provided it is humans, plural. A sad, but dramatic modern case (searchable) is Poto and Cabengo (Grace and Virginia Kennedy).


As I recall, Adam and Eve were reputed to see God before ... well, whatever your take on what happened in Genesis 2 and 3 might happen to be.

I understand this material to be medieval Christian in origin. It would be the party line by then that the Genesis snake was the Christian Devil (or possessed by him), and so the effects of displaying gorwn-up independence would be piously described as diminshed cognitive capacity. The "flesh" was also little esteemed at the time. Or so some of them said for publication.

much tHanks mightily eight ... my emphasis on the expression ' our eyes have become of flesh; ' is because it seems to be quite rare ... if memory serves me right that is the only instance I've come across it ...

Also : 'And there were fruit trees in the garden better than that one.'

I've looked up the books again and it seems 'better than that one' is not mentioned anymore ... of course it could also mean just that ... other trees ... or it could be other 'special' trees that grants other special qualities such as the one that Adam and Eve transgressed upon ... ?

thanks again .. much appreciated ... ~


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#4    Mr Walker

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 11:36 PM

I would go along with 8 bits if the time period for this writing is correct. The bible often describes humans as having two elements The spiritual and the material or flesh. From genesis to revelation, but particularly in christ's words, there is an ongoing allegory or  moral  teaching which suggests humans have adopted the flesh, or emphasised it too much, over the importance of the spiritual.

For some this applies to life after death, where  the spirit  (and perhaps a new bodily form) will live for ever; for others especially to our life on earth where we must chose a better balance between the material ad the spiritual.   A person who listens to the voices of the flesh or the world cannot hear the words of the spirit or of god because the content of the two worlds is so different that a person can really only listen to one, and follow one path. In my eyes one important bit is the disconnection whichoccured either physically or allegorically when adam and eve chose the path of materialism over the spiritual While they gained material knowledge they lost the connection with the spiritual and could no longer see angels.


8 And Adam said to Eve, "Look at thine eyes, and at mine, which afore beheld angels in heaven, praising; and they, too, without ceasing.

9 "But now we do not see as we did: our eyes have become of flesh; they cannot see in like manner as they saw before."

10 Adam said again to Eve, "What is our body to-day, compared to what it was in former days, when we dwelt in the garden?"




I think this can be interpreted literally, but is also a reflection of the changing culture of man. From the writings of  the  Babylonians we know that humans saw the world as a spiritual not a material one. Such a spiritual connection we know existed from cromagnon times up to the Babylonian. But in a world where agriculture and domestication of animals took man out of an "edenic" hunter gatherer society, where a connection to nature was entirely spiritual; requiring new sciences and knowledge, much of the spiritual connection  was lost.  For example in the first kind of existence everything is a gift from god  and includes the essence of god within it, but in the second, man learns how to improve his life and to make things. Thus he comes to know that HE is a creator of considerable power, and can chose his destiny. Naturally this creates a psychological conflict between his old view of god as the giver of everything and the determiner of his destiny and of himself as a maker of things and determiner of his own destiny. Death  remains the one thing he cannot control, and thus life and death remain the province of god.

Edited by Mr Walker, 25 December 2013 - 11:44 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#5    third_eye

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 07:45 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 25 December 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

I would go along with 8 bits if the time period for this writing is correct. The bible often describes humans as having two elements The spiritual and the material or flesh. From genesis to revelation, but particularly in christ's words, there is an ongoing allegory or  moral  teaching which suggests humans have adopted the flesh, or emphasised it too much, over the importance of the spiritual.

For some this applies to life after death, where  the spirit  (and perhaps a new bodily form) will live for ever; for others especially to our life on earth where we must chose a better balance between the material ad the spiritual.   A person who listens to the voices of the flesh or the world cannot hear the words of the spirit or of god because the content of the two worlds is so different that a person can really only listen to one, and follow one path. In my eyes one important bit is the disconnection whichoccured either physically or allegorically when adam and eve chose the path of materialism over the spiritual While they gained material knowledge they lost the connection with the spiritual and could no longer see angels.


8 And Adam said to Eve, "Look at thine eyes, and at mine, which afore beheld angels in heaven, praising; and they, too, without ceasing.

9 "But now we do not see as we did: our eyes have become of flesh; they cannot see in like manner as they saw before."

10 Adam said again to Eve, "What is our body to-day, compared to what it was in former days, when we dwelt in the garden?"

Thanks Mr Walker
I am familiar with the theme you mention here ... and the contents of the books regarding the Adam and Eve episodes are quite similar throughout ...
My emphasis is on the usage of the expressions that is unique to this text.

I apologise ... I should have made a clearer introduction for the origins of the translations :

Quote


THE FIRST BOOK OF

Adam and Eve

ALSO CALLED

The Conflict of Adam and Eve with Satan.
....

That the Adam and Eve story pervaded the thoughts of ancient writers is seen in the large number of versions that exist, or whose existence may be traced, through the writings of Greeks, Syrians, Egyptians, Abyssinians, Hebrews, and other ancient peoples. As a lawyer might say who examines so much apparently unrelated evidence -- there must be something back of it.

The version which we give here is the work of unknown Egyptians (the lack of historical allusion makes it impossible to date the writing). Parts of this version are found in the Talmud, the Koran, and elsewhere, showing what a vital role it played in the original literature of human wisdom. The Egyptian author first wrote in Arabic (which may be taken as the original manuscript) and that found its way farther south and was translated into Ethiopic. For the present English translation we are indebted to Dr. S. C. Malan, Vicar of Broadwindsor, who worked from the Ethiopic edition edited by Dr. E. Trumpp, Professor at the University of Munich. Dr. Trumpp had the advantage of the Arabic original, which makes our bridge over the gap of many centuries a direct one.

The reading of these books is an adventure. You will find the mind of man fed by the passions, hopes, fears of new and strange

[p. 4]

earthly existence rioting, unrestrained, in the zest of self-expression. You roam in the realms of mythology where swiftly the aspects of nature assume manifold personalities, and the amorphous instinct of sin takes on the grotesqueries of a visible devil.

INTRODUCTION TO
THE FORGOTTEN BOOKS OF EDEN

By WILLIAM N. GUTHRIE, D.D. Rector of St. Mark's-in-the-Bouwerie.

excerpt from - The Forgotten Books of Eden, by Rutherford H. Platt, Jr., [1926], at sacred-texts.com


I believe they means that the texts is translated from Arabic texts which was in turn translated from Egyptian of very ancient origins ...


Quote

I think this can be interpreted literally, but is also a reflection of the changing culture of man. From the writings of  the  Babylonians we know that humans saw the world as a spiritual not a material one. Such a spiritual connection we know existed from cromagnon times up to the Babylonian. But in a world where agriculture and domestication of animals took man out of an "edenic" hunter gatherer society, where a connection to nature was entirely spiritual; requiring new sciences and knowledge, much of the spiritual connection  was lost.  For example in the first kind of existence everything is a gift from god  and includes the essence of god within it, but in the second, man learns how to improve his life and to make things. Thus he comes to know that HE is a creator of considerable power, and can chose his destiny. Naturally this creates a psychological conflict between his old view of god as the giver of everything and the determiner of his destiny and of himself as a maker of things and determiner of his own destiny. Death  remains the one thing he cannot control, and thus life and death remain the province of god.

Yes ... that is the common denominator of the meanings of this collection of writings ... have you ever encountered the expression 'our eyes have become of flesh;' before Mr Walker ?

Thanks again ... much appreciated ...


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