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The Islamic point of view on so called Ghosts

ghost jinn

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#31    muslimexorcism

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 02:46 PM

Space_Jockey said:

You brought up this point that pyramids, mental illness, and alien abductions and all other stuff could be explained by Djinns, I'm just asking you about that stuff. I didn't ask you to convince me god exists.

Don't misread me, I'm not bashing any religion or god here.. My post is in response to "Djinns explain everything" thing you said.

read post #26 too if you will, and respond if you care.

Yes it could explain some unexplainable events, just like the westerners call them ghosts we say they're jinn and the kidnapping wich is said in the west to be done by aliens could be done by jinn. I'm just saying could, i didn't say there's 100 procent proof that pyramids are built by the help of jinn or giant people or whatever... And just so you know we as muslims believe in the existence of mentall illnesses but we do not exclude possession and we do not explain every unexplainable event by something like jinn.

I wasn't trying to convince you God exists, sorry for my bad english it's like my 3rd language, so that could be the cause of miscommunication.

Abu Huraira reported that a person said: Allah's Messenger, who amongst the people is most deserving of my good treatment? He said: Your mother, again your mother, again your mother, then your father, then your nearest relatives according to the order (of nearness). - Hadith - Sahih Muslim

#32    LogicalThinker

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 02:47 PM

I want to stress that I think anybody has there right to hold their beliefs and I don't want to bash them or be disrespectful in any way but this is only my opinion which I am entitled to hold and my strong objections to the farce that is possession/excorisims.


#33    muslimexorcism

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 03:06 PM

LogicalThinker said:

I can explain, it's utter rubbish because feeling pain isn't apparent as say losing a limb or being diagnosed with a terrible illness.  And you have answered your own question.."How come Qur'an has affect on people who claim to be possesed."  No evidence, no proof!  Easy! :yes:

I have really enjoyed reading through the discussions on this forum and that is why I joined but I'm afraid I could only last through two minutes of the first video as I suddenly realised that I did not want to be preached to about things that I find quite offensive!  The suppossedly possessed victims, and they are victims, should be in a hospital receiving the proper care and treatment whilst the idiots in these videos should be put in a jail as this is disgusting abuse of vulnerable ill people to gain some credability to their ways and beliefs.  I apologise if you find this reply disrespectfull as it is not my style and I have an open mind but as long as it comes under logical and reasonable thinking, but I would like a live in a world were people and animals receive the proper care they deserve and the subject of 'excorisims' is the torment and abuse of extremely sick people! :td:

Denying something isn't an explanation. Give me a logical explanation why people who claim or are possessed feel pain, start screaming, acting weird, saying weird things etc. When they're being read upon. I said claim to be possessed intentionally, because some people have mental illnesses while thinking they are possessed and they should accept their mentall illness although there is nothing wrong with reading Quran on them as this does not harm them in any way.

There's nothing tormenting about reading a book in a beautifull voice. And again we do not discourage going to a hospital, if you had watched the first video completely you would have heard him say that we respect what they are doing but they also should respect our reading Quran on people to cure them if they choose so on their free will.

And feeling pain is apparent in the way the patient behaves, you cannot feel it yourself but they can. I also know a guy who is possessed and he says he feels pain in his breast while listening to quran or islamic lectures and if he's doing something else wich has nothing to do with islam he doesn't feel the pain and the urge to go away, i even heard two guys who are possessed scream loudly while we were praying in congregation.

Edited by muslimexorcism, 27 December 2013 - 03:11 PM.

Abu Huraira reported that a person said: Allah's Messenger, who amongst the people is most deserving of my good treatment? He said: Your mother, again your mother, again your mother, then your father, then your nearest relatives according to the order (of nearness). - Hadith - Sahih Muslim

#34    LogicalThinker

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 03:17 PM

View Postmuslimexorcism, on 27 December 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

Denying something isn't an explanation. Give me a logical explanation why people who claim or are possessed feel pain, start screaming, acting weird, saying weird things etc. When they're being read upon. I said claim to be possessed intentionally, because some people have mental illnesses while thinking they are possessed and they should accept their mentall illness although there is nothing wrong with reading Quran on them as this does not harm them in any way.

There's nothing tormenting about reading a book in a beautifull voice. And again we do not discourage going to a hospital, if you had watched the first video completely you would have heard him say that we respect what they are doing but they also should respect our reading Quran on people to cure them if they choose so on their free will.
Reading to someone is fine as long as they are receiving the proper medical care for their illness...Telling a mentally ill person that they are possessed with a demon or such things is repulsive and acting out fake rituals to remove the alledged paranormal being from their body is abusive to the victims of this farce...I believe it should be outlawed and the purpetrators should be jailed for such sickning practises.  Lets not forget that the victims are already mentally unstable and in a vunerable condition!  I'm sorry but a human beings mental health comes first before any religon or belief!  I believe that these are crimes against humans in the name of religon and these practises should be expelled.


#35    LogicalThinker

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 03:25 PM

"Give me a logical explanation why people who claim or are possessed feel pain, start screaming, acting weird, saying weird things etc. When they're being read upon."

Again you have answered your own question...Because they are ill and vunerable that IS the logical explanation.!

"Denying something isn't an explanation."

Something scientific perhaps, but not this issue!  What is your explanation for denying that these practises are wrong?


#36    muslimexorcism

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 04:12 PM

I don't see any crime in reading something loudly for those who ask of you to do that. The exorcist does not tell them you're possessed or not, he just reads and if he is possessed it will affect his body and behaviour and if not then he can go home and there's no need in going further. Some choose it last option, others first, so i see no problem in it as long as the patient is safe. Someone who thinks he is possessed and not mentally ill can also read on himself if he wants, he does not need to go to someone experienced and this is also encouraged or can also play a ruqya audio with recitation of Quran wich can be heard on YT.

And forbidding is impossible, because what you are actually saying is forbidding recitation of Quran wich muslims do often like in prayer etc. Just as i said earlier the guys literally started screaming out of pain by the jinn while praying one of the 5 daily prayers. Are we going to forbid prayer now also? There's no doubt in my mind that it has affect on possessed people.

Abu Huraira reported that a person said: Allah's Messenger, who amongst the people is most deserving of my good treatment? He said: Your mother, again your mother, again your mother, then your father, then your nearest relatives according to the order (of nearness). - Hadith - Sahih Muslim

#37    muslimexorcism

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 04:14 PM

Double

Edited by muslimexorcism, 27 December 2013 - 04:44 PM.

Abu Huraira reported that a person said: Allah's Messenger, who amongst the people is most deserving of my good treatment? He said: Your mother, again your mother, again your mother, then your father, then your nearest relatives according to the order (of nearness). - Hadith - Sahih Muslim

#38    LogicalThinker

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 04:44 PM

If I were to suddenly start screaming loudly is this enough to convince you that I may be possessed or that something spiritual is happening with me?  Sure I can scream any time that I want.  Maybe this person desired to create the iilusion that something paranormal was happening, I don't know, I can't answer that.  What I do know is that the human race has the capability and free will to scream from the first second they were born to the last seconds of death.  I get pains all the time..they pretty much come and go..I play a lot of sports and work in an office so it's perfectly reasonable that an active human being would get the odd pain.  Your argument holds no strength.  There is very little you can do to convince me that this is not a 'farce'.  These practises should be expelled!


#39    LogicalThinker

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 04:51 PM

The practise of Excorcisim should be expelled.  What you believe or what you do in your own time is yours to choose.  I just don't believe or think that it is right for one man to tell or dictate that another man is possessed.  Then create the illusion that he can excorcise demons/possessions.  I think that is a disgrace and is very wrong!


#40    LogicalThinker

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 05:01 PM

Ok I decided to go with you as a sceptic to one of the readings.I decided to lie so that I can prove a point and catch your practice out.  I begin screaming loudly and complain of pains in my chest but I am faking. On the way out I admit to faking.  What is your response after I prove how easy it is to fake and that the whole thing was a sham?  Despite knowing that the people are either faking or are very vunerable and ill, how can you even convince yourself?


#41    muslimexorcism

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 05:03 PM

Oh now you're accusing people of being attention seekers. I know some of these people and they aren't doing it on purpose or to create the illusion something weird is happening to them and the scream that comes out of their mouth shows real pain and not just an "ouch" because of work or sports.

If you don't know then just say i don't know as you said and i wasn't trying to convince anyone i'm just answering some of your posts just like you are answering mine.

You guys make these people feel like crazy outcasts at least we give them an alternative.

Abu Huraira reported that a person said: Allah's Messenger, who amongst the people is most deserving of my good treatment? He said: Your mother, again your mother, again your mother, then your father, then your nearest relatives according to the order (of nearness). - Hadith - Sahih Muslim

#42    muslimexorcism

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 05:25 PM

LogicalThinker said:

Ok I decided to go with you as a sceptic to one of the readings.I decided to lie so that I can prove a point and catch your practice out.  I begin screaming loudly and complain of pains in my chest but I am faking. On the way out I admit to faking.  What is your response after I prove how easy it is to fake and that the whole thing was a sham?  Despite knowing that the people are either faking or are very vunerable and ill, how can you even convince yourself?

It has already been done, there's an egyptian documentary about fake exorcists wich i watched a long time ago. There was also a show were fake exorcists were being exposed in arabic. Either way it doesn't prove anything, only that YOU were faking it and a true exorcist with experience would see you are faking.

Abu Huraira reported that a person said: Allah's Messenger, who amongst the people is most deserving of my good treatment? He said: Your mother, again your mother, again your mother, then your father, then your nearest relatives according to the order (of nearness). - Hadith - Sahih Muslim

#43    LogicalThinker

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 05:26 PM

"Oh now you're accusing people of being attention seekers."

Is it unknown for someone to seek attention when they are ill or unhappy?  If someone chooses to go to these readings on their own free will because it helps them then great!  The only problem I have is the possession/excorcism area...That is the only problem I have.  It would be bad advice to send someone to the excorcist when they should be getting the proper treatment in the hospital surely you would agree with that?  Like I said before, a persons health comes first before faith or religon.

" I know some of these people and they aren't doing it on purpose or to create the illusion something weird is happening to them and the scream that comes out of their mouth shows real pain and not just an "ouch" because of work or sports."

But I already proved that I can make a scream or get a pain pretty much anytime whether I fake or not.  Prove to me that they were not fake screams.  How can you be sure another person is definitely feeling pain?  In a court of law it would be very difficult to defend your claims.  I can just imagine the judge asking you   "Well how do you know he was in pain?" "Because he said so and he made some screams" "But anyone here in the court today can scream and say we have pains..Prove it.." "I can't, you just have to take my word for it" "Case closed, you lost!" :tu:


#44    LogicalThinker

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 05:36 PM

View Postmuslimexorcism, on 27 December 2013 - 05:25 PM, said:

It has already been done, there's an egyptian documentary about fake exorcists wich i watched a long time ago. There was also a show were fake exorcists were being exposed in arabic. Either way it doesn't prove anything, only that YOU were faking it and a true exorcist with experience would see you are faking.
The only way the so called excorcist would detect that I was faking is because he is the expert at faking, he is the cunning imposter masquerading as a so called man of a so called God preying on weak and vunerable people.  He would preach that me the sceptic who faked, that his 'magic' did not work because I am a non-believer.  Whether I am a believer in any faith or God should be irrelevant.  The magic either works on me for real or he is exposed as the con artist either way I am the winner on both results.


#45    muslimexorcism

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 06:00 PM

LogicalThinker said:

   If someone chooses to go to these readings on their own free will because it helps them then great!  The only problem I have is the possession/excorcism area...That is the only problem I have.  It would be bad advice to send someone to the excorcist when they should be getting the proper treatment in the hospital surely you would agree with that?  Like I said before, a persons health comes first before faith or religon.

I'm confused now, the exorcism is the reading of quran and nothing else and we do not discourage seeking medical help. If they come to you and ask you to read for them then you read and that's it. Reading the quran an hour or two isn't preventing them from seeking medical help, some of the patients have already sought medical help and some don't have the money to do so so what's wrong with reading quran to them if they think it will work. I think we do not disagree, just the wrong choice of words?


LogicalThinker said:

  But I already proved that I can make a scream or get a pain pretty much anytime whether I fake or not.  Prove to me that they were not fake screams.  How can you be sure another person is definitely feeling pain?  In a court of law it would be very difficult to defend your claims.  I can just imagine the judge asking you   "Well how do you know he was in pain?" "Because he said so and he made some screams" "But anyone here in the court today can scream and say we have pains..Prove it.." "I can't, you just have to take my word for it" "Case closed, you lost!" :tu:

So you do not believe in internal pains? I think if a women in america would accuse you of raping her they would jail you even without evidence. Witnesses can put you in prison without evidence it's known in many countries.


If i had a child and told me it felt pain i would bring it to a doctor or says he's got schizofrenia or some mentall illness and if he can't help then i'll go to someone who reads Quran and if he's really possessed it will help if not then i'll accept my daughter/son has a mentall illness and live with it.

Abu Huraira reported that a person said: Allah's Messenger, who amongst the people is most deserving of my good treatment? He said: Your mother, again your mother, again your mother, then your father, then your nearest relatives according to the order (of nearness). - Hadith - Sahih Muslim





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