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alternate greek mythology


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#1    granpa

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 06:05 AM

Greek mythology is for the most part pretty simple and straightforward.
starting with Erebus and Nyx we have the protogenoi followed by the Titans followed by the Olympians followed by the gigates followed by the demigods and the ending with the Trojan War.

there is however a whole class of stories that don't fit well into this framework.
these stories often involve Artemis and the oceanids and often have common themes (Giants hurling rocks or mountains)
I believe that these stories together form a separate mythology that predates even erebus and nyx.
sometimes the stories are similar to the regular Greek mythology stories but the names have been changed slightly. Typhon becomes typhoeus. sometimes the names are completely different. Ouranos becomes ophion. and sometimes the names aren't changed at all

https://en.wikipedia...phism_(religion)

http://www.theoi.com...nos/Thesis.html




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Edited by granpa, 06 January 2014 - 07:00 AM.

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#2    Likely Guy

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 06:45 AM

The only story that I recall is Athos. I'll have to read up some more.


#3    jaylemurph

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 07:48 AM

 granpa, on 06 January 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

Greek mythology is for the most part pretty simple and straightforward.

Ha!

This can only have been uttered by someone almost completely ignorant of the subject. I encourage you to go get a copy of Graves' The Greek Myths, which provides a healthy sample of the myths, most of which have seven or eight variations, depending on local tradition, political expedience and source material used. The Greek myths represent several centuries of active, changing religious, political and historical across a huge swath of geography, from Western Turkey to Sicily, and that's without the tales taken in and adapted by the Romans.

The idea they all fit within some sort of simple framework is the grossest simplification, borne out of *redacted*, I have seen in some time.

--Jaylemurph

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#4    Likely Guy

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 08:02 AM

I was wondering how long that would take.

Edited by Likely Guy, 06 January 2014 - 08:02 AM.


#5    DecoNoir

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 08:09 AM

 Likely Guy, on 06 January 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

I was wondering how long that would take.

In this forum, if its less than an hour, just assume the member your thinking of is dead.

I reject your reality, and substitute my own! Mostly because yours is boring as hell.

#6    granpa

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 10:57 PM

I took another shot at it and this time I think I've finally done it justice.
http://religion.wiki...asis#Golden_Age


I started with this
Pleiades_(Greek_mythology)#The_Seven_Sisters
and worked from there.

Edited by granpa, 01 October 2014 - 11:09 PM.

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#7    jaylemurph

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 02:55 AM

View Postgranpa, on 06 January 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

Greek mythology is for the most part pretty simple and straightforward.

Man, I don't think I could give a better response than my first one above. Needless to say, granpa either doesn't know or actively chooses to conceal the incredible variety of Greek mythology.

--Jaylemurph

Edited by jaylemurph, 02 October 2014 - 02:57 AM.

"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

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#8    kmt_sesh

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 04:28 AM

What, exactly, is the purpose of this thread?

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#9    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 11:25 AM

View Postjaylemurph, on 06 January 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:

Ha!

This can only have been uttered by someone almost completely ignorant of the subject. I encourage you to go get a copy of Graves' The Greek Myths, which provides a healthy sample of the myths, most of which have seven or eight variations, depending on local tradition, political expedience and source material used. The Greek myths represent several centuries of active, changing religious, political and historical across a huge swath of geography, from Western Turkey to Sicily, and that's without the tales taken in and adapted by the Romans.

The idea they all fit within some sort of simple framework is the grossest simplification, borne out of *redacted*, I have seen in some time.

--Jaylemurph
I actually have a copy of Robert Graves The White Goddess and have read it, let me tell you, that was no easy feat.

http://en.wikipedia....e_White_Goddess

Here's a picture I took just now of it, my own 1977 copy, in front of my computer, making this post, just in case anyone thinks I'm on here playing games. The only game I play is Words With Friends.

Posted Image

Edited by The Puzzler, 02 October 2014 - 11:36 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#10    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 03:21 PM

View Postgranpa, on 06 January 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

Greek mythology is for the most part pretty simple and straightforward.
starting with Erebus and Nyx we have the protogenoi followed by the Titans followed by the Olympians followed by the gigates followed by the demigods and the ending with the Trojan War.

there is however a whole class of stories that don't fit well into this framework.
these stories often involve Artemis and the oceanids and often have common themes (Giants hurling rocks or mountains)
I believe that these stories together form a separate mythology that predates even erebus and nyx.
sometimes the stories are similar to the regular Greek mythology stories but the names have been changed slightly. Typhon becomes typhoeus. sometimes the names are completely different. Ouranos becomes ophion. and sometimes the names aren't changed at all

https://en.wikipedia...phism_(religion)

http://www.theoi.com...nos/Thesis.html




Posted Image

Gaia, Tartarus and Eros are mentioned with Nyx and Erebus, possibly even before their time, before the darkness and light were born. Tartarus is in a hurling myth, it's probably not that odd to see a whole range of them connected to the Titans reign from this time. The connection of Titans to Tartarus and Mt Atlas when Atlas was put there to hold up the Heavens could have occurred in this very archaic 'pre-myth' timeframe imo.

In Greek mythology, Chaos, the primeval void, was the first thing which existed. According to Hesiod,[1] "at first Chaos came to be" (or was)[2] "but next" (possibly out of Chaos) came Gaia, Tartarus, and Eros.[3] Unambiguously born "from Chaos" were Erebus (Darkness) and Nyx (Night).[4]
The Greek word "chaos" (χάος), a neuter noun, means "yawning" or "gap", but what, if anything, was located on either side of this chasm is unclear.[5] For Hesiod, Chaos, like Tartarus, though personified enough to have born children, was also a place, far away, underground and "gloomy", beyond which lived the Titans.[6] And, like the earth, the ocean, and the upper air, It was also capable of being affected by Zeus' thunderbolts.[7]
For the Roman poet Ovid Chaos was an unformed mass, where all the elements were jumbled up together in a "shapeless heap".
http://en.wikipedia....haos_(mythology)

The last part by Ovid is very Plato.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#11    Leonardo

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 04:35 PM

Prior to and during the 'Classical' period of ancient Greece there was never a body operating under a unified authority known as 'Greece'. What we refer to as 'Greece' today was a collection of city-states who sometimes co-operated but more often were antagonists.

Thus, the idea there is a "alternate Greek mythology" does not exist, because there is no cohesive 'Greek mythology' from that period for anything to be alternate of. There are some common themes running through the mythologies of the various city-states that either point to a common root for the variants of 'Greek mythology', or reflect a convergence due to geographical proximity leading to shared themes. However, there is no one 'definitive' "Greek mythology".

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#12    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 October 2014 - 04:40 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 02 October 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

Prior to and during the 'Classical' period of ancient Greece there was never a body operating under a unified authority known as 'Greece'. What we refer to as 'Greece' today was a collection of city-states who sometimes co-operated but more often were antagonists.

Thus, the idea there is a "alternate Greek mythology" does not exist, because there is no cohesive 'Greek mythology' from that period for anything to be alternate of. There are some common themes running through the mythologies of the various city-states that either point to a common root for the variants of 'Greek mythology', or reflect a convergence due to geographical proximity leading to shared themes. However, there is no one 'definitive' "Greek mythology".
I'm not so sure about that, I'm not even that sure what you are saying but I'll add this anyway:

Geometric designs on pottery of the eighth century BC depict scenes from the Trojan cycle, as well as the adventures of Heracles.[2] These visual representations of myths are important for two reasons. Firstly, many Greek myths are attested on vases earlier than in literary sources: of the twelve labors of Heracles, for example, only the Cerberus adventure occurs in a contemporary literary text.[12] Secondly, visual sources sometimes represent myths or mythical scenes that are not attested in any extant literary source. In some cases, the first known representation of a myth in geometric art predates its first known representation in late archaic poetry, by several centuries.[4] In the Archaic (c. 750–c. 500 BC), Classical (c. 480–323 BC), and Hellenistic (323–146 BC) periods, Homeric and various other mythological scenes appear, supplementing the existing literary evidence
http://en.wikipedia....Greek_mythology

Edited by The Puzzler, 02 October 2014 - 05:03 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#13    Parsec

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 05:41 PM

I can't resist: I've looked at your chart, why on Earth did you slip the words nephilim and ophanim in it?

View Postjaylemurph, on 02 October 2014 - 02:55 AM, said:

[...] Needless to say, granpa either doesn't know or actively chooses to conceal the incredible variety of Greek mythology.

View Postkmt_sesh, on 02 October 2014 - 04:28 AM, said:

What, exactly, is the purpose of this thread?

Maybe the real answer lies in those two words?


#14    granpa

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 05:47 PM

http://religion.wiki...ative_mythology

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#15    third_eye

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Posted 04 October 2014 - 06:56 PM

What is now known as 'Western' Civilization owes much to the Grecian Myths ~ and Philosophy ~

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

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