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Civilisation from the depths - Black Sea


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#1    qxcontinuum

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 04:26 PM

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Civilization from the depths -

Robert Ballard, who discovered the wreck of the Titanic, is a scholar whose methods, though controversial, have paid off so far. And this, because his assumptions, most often different from most researchers were finally demonstrated by the findings, which led many to stick your head in the sand, making it forgot that all they were the staunchest objectors of these assumptions.

Translation link: http://translate.goo...-negra/&act=url

Original: http://www.rbnpress....ri-marea-negra/

Edited by Saru, 12 January 2014 - 04:47 PM.
Trimmed for length, added translate link


#2    qxcontinuum

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:23 AM

I must ad to the previous article that placing Atlantis in Europe in Antique Greece proximity does make sense. Antique Greek historian Herodotus have mentioned about its existence and visited Atlantis. He couldn 't have done so if this would have been too far by Greece land. There were no means of advance travelling back then.


#3    Kaa-Tzik

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 04:37 PM

I've seen the documentary made by Ballard a few years back, and read about this. While I do not doubt that the Black Sea area was a very important area many thousands of years ago, and was likely a "factory of people", as Scandinavia at a later period has been described, I think that the level of civilisation at that time would not have been even remotely high enough for some folk memory of an Atlantis like civilisation, the type the fantasists would have us believe. Maybe, just maybe, the inundation of the Black Sea by the Med, or ice melt from the far north, take your pick, is the originator of the "flood" myths, but not Atlantis, imo.

Edited by Kaa-Tzik, 13 January 2014 - 04:43 PM.


#4    JustMeRicky

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 09:27 PM

View Postqxcontinuum, on 13 January 2014 - 01:23 AM, said:

I must ad to the previous article that placing Atlantis in Europe in Antique Greece proximity does make sense. Antique Greek historian Herodotus have mentioned about its existence and visited Atlantis. He couldn 't have done so if this would have been too far by Greece land. There were no means of advance travelling back then.
That's a good point, I never thought of that.

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#5    Harte

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 01:59 AM

View Postqxcontinuum, on 13 January 2014 - 01:23 AM, said:

I must ad to the previous article that placing Atlantis in Europe in Antique Greece proximity does make sense. Antique Greek historian Herodotus have mentioned about its existence and visited Atlantis. He couldn 't have done so if this would have been too far by Greece land. There were no means of advance travelling back then.

View PostJustMeRicky, on 13 January 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

That's a good point, I never thought of that.
"Good point," eh?

Herodotuis never claimed to visit Atlantis - never even mentioned it.

Regarding the lack of travel options, that's purely ignorant hooey.

What, you think they walked everywhere?

Ever heard of a ship?

No ancient writings at alll mention in any way any visit to Atlantis whatsoever.

This stupid has hurt my smart.

Harte

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#6    CaitSith

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 02:35 AM

View PostHarte, on 14 January 2014 - 01:59 AM, said:

"Good point," eh?

Herodotuis never claimed to visit Atlantis - never even mentioned it.

Regarding the lack of travel options, that's purely ignorant hooey.

What, you think they walked everywhere?

Ever heard of a ship?

No ancient writings at alll mention in any way any visit to Atlantis whatsoever.

This stupid has hurt my smart.

Harte
I get the feeling you disagree with qxcontinuum's proposal. By all means don't hold back...

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#7    lightly

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 02:36 AM

I must say Harte,  that's a little harsh.   but  Funny !    ..so  i guess it's ok.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#8    qxcontinuum

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 03:08 AM

No it's alright , history is not easy, it was Plato mentioning about Atlantis , same piece of land though Greece.


#9    Skithia

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 04:50 PM

View Postqxcontinuum, on 14 January 2014 - 03:08 AM, said:

No it's alright , history is not easy, it was Plato mentioning about Atlantis , same piece of land though Greece.

Plato didnt say he had been there either, its a story passed on by Plato that he states he heard from a person who knew a famous traveller in Egypt (might not be totally accurate in that). Trouble I have with this is that Greece had by Plato's time been practicing the Dramatic Art for centuries - telling stories and enacting plays that were pure fiction but told in such a way that they made commentary on the political scene of the day in Greece. I totally dont get why people think this story is any different to the stuff Plato's contemporaries were producing at the time.


#10    third_eye

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 05:05 PM

SOmeone did swear it to be 'truth' ?

A sworn statement is not merely story telling ~ in those days and age ... though in terms of accuracy I think its a problem of modern translation and interpretation rather than the veracity of the original tale passed on throughout the ages ~ though they do know of the different cultures or languages I doubt that they knows the intricate details in regards of what constitutes 'legends' and what defines 'mythical' in the context that is prevalent in the different civilisations of the times ~

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#11    Harte

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 09:09 PM

View Postqxcontinuum, on 14 January 2014 - 03:08 AM, said:

No it's alright , history is not easy, it was Plato mentioning about Atlantis , same piece of land though Greece.
Sorry, but no.

Good Lord I wish people would read Plato before commenting on what he wrote!

Harte

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#12    Harte

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 09:13 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 14 January 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

SOmeone did swear it to be 'truth' ?
Plato used the literary device of having a character state that the story is true, even though it sounds fantastic.

Plato used this same technique in many of his surviving works, including The Republic - which precedes Timaeus (where Atlantis first came up.)

There is no ancient myth of Atlantis.  There's no mention of it at all anywhere prior to Plato's dialogue Timaeus.

Harte

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#13    third_eye

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 10:10 PM

View PostHarte, on 14 January 2014 - 09:13 PM, said:

Plato used the literary device of having a character state that the story is true, even though it sounds fantastic.

Plato used this same technique in many of his surviving works, including The Republic - which precedes Timaeus (where Atlantis first came up.)

There is no ancient myth of Atlantis.  There's no mention of it at all anywhere prior to Plato's dialogue Timaeus.

Harte

AYe Mr Harte ~ 'no mention of it at all anywhere prior to Plato's dialogue Timaeus.' that we know of ~ I very much doubt Plato made it up, as far as the available sources go, fiction is not his cup of tea ~ I do believe Plato did scribed the tale as he was told ~ the reliability of his source though leaves much questions as much as his intentions in documenting it ~ politically entrenching the benefits of a propositional 'utopia' perhaps  ?

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Quote

Unwritten doctrines

For a long time, Plato's unwritten doctrine[51][52][53] had been controversial. Many modern books on Plato seem to diminish its importance; nevertheless, the first important witness who mentions its existence is Aristotle, who in his Physics (209 B) writes: "It is true, indeed, that the account he gives there [i.e. in [i]Timaeus[/i]] of the participant is different from what he says in his so-called unwritten teachings (ἄγραφα δόγματα)." The term ἄγραφα δόγματα literally means unwritten doctrines and it stands for the most fundamental metaphysical teaching of Plato, which he disclosed only orally, and some say only to his most trusted fellows, and which he may have kept secret from the public. The importance of the unwritten doctrines does not seem to have been seriously questioned before the 19th century.

and ...



Quote

Composition of the dialogues

No one knows the exact order Plato's dialogues were written in, nor the extent to which some might have been later revised and rewritten. A significant distinction of the early Plato and the later Plato has been offered by scholars such as E.R. Dodds and has been summarized by Harold Bloom in his book titled Agon: "E.R. Dodds is the classical scholar whose writings most illuminated the Hellenic descent (in) The Greeks and the Irrational [...] In his chapter on Plato and the Irrational Soul [...] Dodds traces Plato's spiritual evolution from the pure rationalist of the Protagoras to the transcendental psychologist, influenced by the Pythagoreans and Orphics, of the later works culminating in the Laws."[66]



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Edited by third_eye, 14 January 2014 - 10:16 PM.

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#14    Harte

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 01:52 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 14 January 2014 - 10:10 PM, said:

AYe Mr Harte ~ 'no mention of it at all anywhere prior to Plato's dialogue Timaeus.' that we know of ~ I very much doubt Plato made it up, as far as the available sources go, fiction is not his cup of tea ~ I do believe Plato did scribed the tale as he was told ~ the reliability of his source though leaves much questions as much as his intentions in documenting it ~ politically entrenching the benefits of a propositional 'utopia' perhaps  ?
Judging by the wiki quote concerning Aristotle that you provided, it would seem that you think that this statement from Aristotle involves Atlantis.

I assure you it does not.  In fact the Timeaus has nothing to do with Atlantis. As one of the characters, Critias mentions that he will expound on it next, once Timaeus has had his dialogue with Socrates.  Critias then gives sort of a preview of his tale before handing the reins back over to Timaeus. That is the extent of Atlantis in the Timaeus.

Aristotle was talking about the argument that Plato made in The Timaeus - that of the "sensible realm," which regarded Plato's theory of forms.  Apparently, Aristole was critical of this and was rooted more in the concrete.

As far as the order they were written in, overall, this is true.  However, the Timaeus comes between The Republic and The Critias, based on what is written in the Timaeus about both dialogues.

Plato, through the character Critias in The Timaeus, actually lays this out for us here:

Quote

I have told you briefly, Socrates, what the aged Critias heard from Solon and related to us. And when you were speaking yesterday about your city and citizens, (NOTE: Here Critias refers to Socrate's tale told in The Republic - Harte) the tale which I have just been repeating to you came into my mind, and I remarked with astonishment how, by some mysterious coincidence, you agreed in almost every particular with the narrative of Solon; but I did not like to speak at the moment. For a long time had elapsed, and I had forgotten too much; I thought that I must first of all run over the narrative in my own mind, and then I would speak. And so I readily assented to your request yesterday, considering that in all such cases the chief difficulty is to find a tale suitable to our purpose, and that with such a tale we should be fairly well provided.

And therefore, as Hermocrates has told you, on my way home yesterday I at once communicated the tale to my companions as I remembered it; and after I left them, during the night by thinking I recovered nearly the whole it. Truly, as is often said, the lessons of our childhood make wonderful impression on our memories; for I am not sure that I could remember all the discourse of yesterday, but I should be much surprised if I forgot any of these things which I have heard very long ago. I listened at the time with childlike interest to the old man's narrative; he was very ready to teach me, and I asked him again and again to repeat his words, so that like an indelible picture they were branded into my mind. As soon as the day broke, I rehearsed them as he spoke them to my companions, that they, as well as myself, might have something to say. And now, Socrates, to make an end my preface, I am ready to tell you the whole tale. I will give you not only the general heads, but the particulars, as they were told to me. (NOTE: And again here Critias refers to The Republic - Harte) The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. Let us divide the subject among us, and all endeavour according to our ability gracefully to execute the task which you have imposed upon us. Consider then, Socrates, if this narrative is suited to the purpose, or whether we should seek for some other instead.
Then:

Quote

Crit. Let me proceed to explain to you, Socrates, the order in which we have arranged our entertainment. Our intention is, that Timaeus, who is the most of an astronomer amongst us, and has made the nature of the universe his special study, should speak first, beginning with the generation of the world and going down to the creation of man; next, I am to receive the men whom he has created of whom some will have profited by the excellent education which you have given them; and then, in accordance with the tale of Solon, and equally with his law, we will bring them into court and make them citizens, as if they were those very Athenians whom the sacred Egyptian record has recovered from oblivion, and thenceforward we will speak of them as Athenians and fellow-citizens.

Basically establishing, if not the exact order of these three dialogues, at the least that the Timaeus came after the Republic and was intended to precede the Critias, whether written (in real time) before it or not.

Read all three dialogues here.

Harte

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#15    qxcontinuum

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Posted 15 January 2014 - 04:02 AM

View PostHarte, on 14 January 2014 - 09:09 PM, said:


Sorry, but no.

Good Lord I wish people would read Plato before commenting on what he wrote!

Harte

This is what i read;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis

Atlantis (Ancient Greek: Ἀτλαντὶς νῆσος, "island of Atlas") is a mythical island first mentioned in Plato's dialogues Timaeus and Critias, written in c. 360 BC. According to Plato, Atlantis was a land and sea power situated "in front of the Pillars of Hercules" that had conquered many parts of Western Europe and Africa 9,000 years before the time of the Athenian lawgiver Solon, i.e. in the 10th millennium BC. After a failed attempt to invade Athens, Atlantis sank into the ocean "in a single day and night of misfortune."
The possible existence of Atlantis was discussed throughout classical antiquity. The Timaeus remained known in a Latin rendition by Calcidius through the Middle Ages, and the allegorical aspect of Atlantis was taken up by Humanists in utopian works of several Renaissance writers, such as Bacon's New Atlantis and More's Utopia. In the United States, Donnelly's 1882 publication Atlantis: the Antediluvian World unleashed widespread interests from pseudo-scientists. As a theme, Atlantis inspires today's light fiction, from science fiction to comic books to films. Its name has become a byword for any and all supposed advanced prehistoric lost civilizations.
In academia, the Atlantis story is seen as one of the many myths Plato incorporated into his work for stylistic reasons,[1] in this case to represent his conceptualized ideal state (see The Republic) in action.[2][3] Like the story of Gyges, it might have been inspired by older traditions or mythology. The frame story in Critias tells about an alleged visit of Solon to Egypt, where a priest of Sais translated the story of the purported war between ancient Athens and Atlantis into Greek. Although most classicists reject this way of tradition as implausible, some scholars argue that Egyptian records of the Thera eruption, the Sea Peoples invasion, or the Trojan War might have indeed influenced Plato in some way.[4] Most modern classicists and philologists, however, insist that Plato designed the story from scratch,[5][6][7] and was loosely inspired by contemporary events like the failed Athenian invasion of Sicily in 415413 BC, or the destruction of Helike in 373 BC.[8]

Edited by qxcontinuum, 15 January 2014 - 04:03 AM.





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