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Aliens: To be or Not To be.....


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#1    Vox

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 01:09 AM

                                                  I would like to debate for the motion, that UFOs and alien abductions DO NOT exist (or take place by extraterrestrials for that matter; boy do I know how to push some buttons ay??  tongue.gif ). Well here are the facts that I personally believe substantiate this motion.

First of all I believe that Alien beings have never travelled to earth. This I will base to the fact that travel between solar systems is nigh impossible to us. It will take many years for us even to build up our technology to fathom that we will reach OUR outer confines of the solar system, let alone travel to a new one within one lifetime. If we ever do come across any sort of intelligent life we will initiate contact immediately, because we have had to face many tribulations to get to that stage, and we are not going to stop within the last 10 meters of our marathon, to deliberate whether or not to say hello to the indiginous life on the newly discovered planet. Thus if an alien being did arrive to our planet, it would only be logical that it would want to establish contact immediately, and not start to beam up people into the mother ship to open them up and make our females pregnant with their hybrid offspring.

Lets say that they did come to earth (a waaaaay big longshot in my book anyway, but...),you would think that if they truly did want to take subterfuge close their hearts, they would be a little more inconspicuos wouldn't you? I mean frankly if I'm spying on you from a UFO I'd try and hide my presence a little, like for example mimicking an aeroplane's lights and cruising along at a similar speed, not start flashing all the colours in the fricking rainbow and then getting the hell out of there at the speed of light. These things invariably bring about unwanted attention which to any spying, or even scientific research at that would be compromised.

Scientifically if I were studying a pack of chimpanzees, I'd try and make my presence known as little as possible, so as to decrease the factor by which my presence in their environment is having an effect on their behaviour, this is known as good scientific protocol. However it seems that these alien beings are completely disregarding all basic scientific research laws, interfering with their 'supposed' scientific experiment by leaving them to be seen, and sticking probes in places which are nobody's business.  I don't care from which point in the cosmos you belong to, but good science is good science everywhere, and if these alien beings are completely disregarding it, hell they must not be as clever as they are made out to be.

I'll let you guys think about this, and please post your feedback, I want to know how flawed my argument is!! I'll post my views tommorow about what "I" think abductions, and UFOs are (trust me, from my perspective it is far more sinister than you fathom!!! I don't think that people who have said that they are abuductees are lying, well not all of them!). I'm signing off for now, 'coz I gotta wash my shorts for tommorows physiotherapy practical and it is 15 past 1 in the morning here!!! In any case....                                                  

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#2    reese2

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 10:14 AM

                                                  I think your number one flaw is that you are comparing what they 'would' do to what we on Earth do.  You simply cannot say that because our own technology is not capable enough of supporting long range travel, or even travel between dimensions, that we should assume that if there is other life out there, that they couldn't as well.

Again, when you say that it would be logical for them to establish contact with us first, instead of just beaming us up, you are going by our rules of conduct.  If you are dealing with a completely different species, from a different planet, wouldn't their rules of engagment and study be entirely their own?

YOU SAID:
Lets say that they did come to earth (a waaaaay big longshot in my book anyway, but...),you would think that if they truly did want to take subterfuge close their hearts, they would be a little more inconspicuos wouldn't you? I mean frankly if I'm spying on you from a UFO I'd try and hide my presence a little, like for example mimicking an aeroplane's lights and cruising along at a similar speed, not start flashing all the colours in the fricking rainbow and then getting the hell out of there at the speed of light. These things invariably bring about unwanted attention which to any spying, or even scientific research at that would be compromised.


Unwanted attention or not, it must be working to who ever's advantage because even you have dedicated a thread now to the disbelief of their exsistence.  You know there are many people that do not believe in Alien visits', so if it is happening, maybe the best cover imagineable is flashing those rainbow lights all over town.  Maybe?

Well, if they are here, for whatever reason, they are staying in the shadows pretty much, aren't they?  I have yet to see any Aliens.  So, if they are seen, it really isn't affecting too much.  They are not walking down the street with a sign or anything.  What if the sightings are real, and the abductions are real?  What if it is their own version of a controlled experiment?  I would have to say that, that is pretty smart.

Ok, now I am going to interject my own opinion to this.

I know that there are UFO's out there.  By all logical definition, a UFO, is simply an Unidentified Flying Object.  That being said, it could be flown by a bunch on ants, who knows, but there is far too much solid evidence to show that there are true UFO's.  Now if they are man made and controlled, I don't know, but still it is a technology that is new to us, at this moment.

What I find interesting is the theory that most of the UFO's we see, and most of the abductions that take place, are by our 'future' selves.  Isn't that plausable when you really think about it?  5000 years from now, I would like to hope that we have all sorts of time travel and inter dimensional travel capabilities.  Plus, if it was us jumping back, wouldn't it then put us in the awkward position of having to attain much need resources?  Plus, wouldn't we have a vested interest in making sure that certain things throughout history, and certain people in history, attain their destiny?  Some thing to think about definately...  


      Reese

                                                  

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#3    reese2

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 10:32 AM

                                                  Sorry, forgot some things that I would like to point out.

If our future selves are the Aliens that we are trying so hard to prove exist, isn't it ironic that the description of the grey's are quite similar to what a predicted evolutionary change of our own bodies would look like, say 5000 years from now?

The greys have extended fingers, I would think by then we would have longer fingers, since everything is basically 'hands on' and computerized.  The eyes are bigger, and the mouths are smaller, at least making it apparent that by this time, if they are our future, these are evolved due to lack of use by one, and more use of the other.  Plus if that is our future selves, I would hope if we have the capabilities to travel unlike travel known today, that we could also speak without using our mouths.

They have no hair. Wouldn't our own hair be fazed out by then, because it like other organs, is not needed?  

This is all pure speculation, I have no substantianting proof, which makes this such a good topic to debate.. As far as I am concerned there are no right or wrong answers at this moment..  It is simply too hard to tell what the hell is really going on.

Well thanks for letting me talk everyone's ears off.   wub.gif


         Reese                                                  

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#4    Vox

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 04:39 PM

                                                  A ha!!! The first replies come in!! I respect your point of view Reese however I do not agree with it (wouldn't be much of a debate if I did huh?  laugh.gif ). I understand that if  these E.T.s came from a different planet/galaxy/universe/plane/dimension (phew!) that they might have a completely uhhh 'Alien' (for lack of a better word) method of examining/spying on us, however that does not rule out the fact that it is still bad scientific protocol to make your presence known to your experiment population, as I said before good science here, is good science everywhere, regardless from where you come from. I do base my argument from what we, as humanity, judge our living context and environment, because there is no other solid platform from which to base my argument on, otherwise it is just left to pure speculation to what these beings are. For example if I were to say that these E.T.s have devised a method to travel faster than the speed of light, that would be throwing down one of our first fundamental laws of physics, which I personally am not in a position to throw down, apart from the fact that all our modern day physics are based on this concept. I understand that our desire to substantiate the unknown will drive us to hypothesise all sorts of theories with respect to E.T.s, by no means are any of them flawed, beacuse all scientific principles we have now were once theories. But in any case I will stick to my scientific principles, because they help us understand the world around us. In relation to the theory that the Greys might be humans from the future; I have heard this theory before, and it would be possible if time travel were to exists, but however there is alot of research that points out that whilst it is possible in theory, it is not possible in practice. In any case it would take alot more time than 5000 years for humans to achieve the description that describes the Greys. It would take millions upon millions of years for that drastic change to occur, that it is, without genetic manipulation on our behalf.                                                  

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#5    reese2

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 05:03 PM

                                                  The possiblity that the Grey's are our future selves is so plausable.  You said it yourself, it could not be attained without genetic altering.  It could most certainly happen, in that time frame.  You never know what could or would cause us to be like that, maybe biochemical agents, used in warfare, thus thrusting us to make a home on a new planet, or in a new dimension.  Speaking of which, could happen, but not as science sits today.  (Homer is really better with Science than I am)  I may be entirely wrong, but until they swoop down over my house and pull me into their ship and say 'you are wrong', then hell I have to go with what makes more sense to me.. Them going by our laws of science and ettiquette just doesn't jive to me.  Personally, there are way too many flaws in our own system of science.

I have to say that once upon a time it was viewed as impossible the idea of two people being able to talk or type when they are so geographically far apart, as we are.  But, we're doing it, aren't we??   ohmy.gif

It may be far fetched, but everything as crazy as it is, can/could still be attained differently.  There are many flaws with our experimental procedures, and that is always left open for new methods of practice.  Nothing that we as humans do, is set in stone, so to speak.

To know if 'they' are using bad methods of science to spy on us as test subjects, then you would have to know the basis of their tests.  Which we don't know, unless you have a secret you would like to share..   huh.gif

What if the entire premise to abductions or sightings is to test our reactions in certain conditions??


      Reese   wub.gif                                                  

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When one door closes another door opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the ones which open for us." - Alexander Graham Bell

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#6    Bloated Corpse

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Posted 28 February 2003 - 10:06 PM

                                                  There are many ways to study a specimen, one which everyone will agree on is from a hidden advantage point. But when your experimentation moves on to see how it will affect a broader range of subjucts and that test is to see how they will react to new stimuli then flashing rainbow colors and jetting away at faster than light speeds.

Although if your subjects are becoming sensitized to the provided stimulus than more outlandish test will be needed. Thus we have the reactions of the majority of the populace in thinking that those who have seen a UFO to be a crackpot.                                                  

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#7    The Council of Nine

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 12:10 PM

                                                  Great points from all of you....Personally I do believe there are other "life forms" out there...why...one simple reason....the place is so bloody big..!...we have not got a clue what is REALLY outside our Galaxy...I'm going on percentages...they have never let me down yet (ask enough girls out one is bound to say yes..!)...seriously...there are to many stars/planets/solar systems/galaxies/dimensions etc etc out there one has to have "intelligent" life....As for us being the "Greys".. interesting...I think we all know.. if we are honest..that at some point the silly humans who infest this beautifull planet will ruin it and have to move on....christ..where did that come from..must be getting cynical in my old age..  huh.gif                                                  

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#8    emmy

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Posted 04 March 2003 - 01:40 PM

                                                  I agree with the above.                                                  


#9    snuffypuffer

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Posted 13 March 2003 - 08:07 PM

                                                  I read somewhere that a time machine cannot go back to a time before it was built.  I don't remember the title of the book or anything, but it does make the theory that the greys are our future species a little inplausible.  Makes the whole idea of a time machine a little useless.  Then again, what if we discover we don't actually [I]need[I] a machine to go back in time, like in donnie darko.  something to think about.                                                  

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#10    Sidhe

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 12:42 AM

                                                  There's an underlying assumption that the aliens would be benign scientific types who have come to study.  Actually, if you take the stories seriously, they don't appear to be studying.

I'm not saying that it's true, but if the "popular" idea of aliens taking our eggs and sperm (and cows!) is correct, then it appears that the aliens don't give a squat about us.  You could speculate then that their secrecy serves ends other than keeping the "subject" free of the observer, in some scientific protocol..  What that might be is anyone's guess.

The fact that the psychological community takes it seriously (at least a portion of it does..) makes me give it a little more credit than I might have fifteen years ago.  I know that the experiencers are experiecing something..  I cannot wave off thousands of stories simply with my own incredulity.                                                  


#11    Illumin8

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 03:04 PM

                                                  Yes, welldone everyone, some really plausable points have been stated here, making this such a damn interesting topic of disussion.
  As for bad scientific protocol, you are only basing that on your idea of what  good scientific and bad scientific protocols are. To a race that does not think along the same logical, scientifical left brained nonsensical ideas, then maybe its behaviour only seems radical to us. Where they come from it could be common policy when visiting new species to first pick a few at random to assess wether they are dangerous or not, then start slowly letting the other species become aware of your presence by flitting around in your craft, then going into hiding or distant observation for a while to see what kind of effect you've just had on this species that seem capable of living whilst in a permanent state of sleep.  I think we need to wake up, explore the depths of our own conciousness, as we seem to be fliiting around on the surface never knowing what lurks beneath.                                                  

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#12    Loonboy

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Posted 19 April 2003 - 06:15 PM

                                                  

Ok, well, I believe that aliens have visited and continue to visit our planet. I believe that there have been visits by aliens of multiple types with varying agendas. Some came here to see what was going on, no doubt. Some came possibly to study. And others came to milk us for what they could (the greys  tongue.gif  ).

As has been said above and prior to this on other threads, just because we cannot travel the vast distances easily yet, does not extrapolate to mean that intelligent life elsewhere could not also. That is flawed logic.

One problem I have with Ufos being alien vessels was partly exlpored above - why all the flashing brilliant lights etc? Sure, our aircraft have lights on them for navigation and for warnings to other aircraft. Why would a ship travelling to another planet need them? I'm sure the Apollo craft did not have flashing blue and red lights to warn the moon that it was coming in to land.

As far as the agenda of any visiting aliens, well theirs has to be by definition alien and not easily understandable by our human psychology. For example, alien greys have been likened to behaving with a 'hive' mentality akin to bees or ants. When abductees have had emotional outbursts in their presence, they have reacted as if to say 'what was that all about?' and seemed not to understand.
Put something that ants or bees want near to them, they'll go over and take it. They won't go over and say 'hey, guys, we're from the colony over there, would you mind us taking this back?'. They'd just waltz over and take what they wanted. Explanations would not be in the front of their mind (I assume - I certainly haven't heard a bee ask for permission to take pollen/nectar from my flowers or indeed give me a run down of what it was doing).

Who knows, perhaps aliens have a variety of types and a variety of agendas and a variety of mentalities? We can't afford to assume that all aliens will behave like we do or think like we think.

                                                  


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#13    Kismit

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Posted 22 April 2003 - 05:16 AM

                                                  Maybe the reason the Aliens behave in such a way LB is because they don't know that much about us . Maybe they haven't formed a connection wit us yet as beings . They don't see us as Important .
  Perhaps in the same way that serial killars ( not a good analogy I know , this in no way means that I believe aliens are serial killars) don't see there victim's as people . Or in the same way people of different races have treated eachother over the years .
  Maybe that type of alien has not been coming here for all that long .

  Who knows what there ultimate goal might be ....                                                  


#14    Space Moose

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Posted 22 April 2003 - 07:00 AM

QUOTE (Vox @ Feb 28 2003, 01:09 AM)
Scientifically if I were studying a pack of chimpanzees, I'd try and make my presence known as little as possible, so as to decrease the factor by which my presence in their environment is having an effect on their behaviour, this is known as good scientific protocol.

                                                  By your definition, Jane Goodall does not observe good scientific protocol.  Since she pretty much wrote the book on Chimpanzees and they treat her like one of thier own, I would suggest that perhaps integration is the way to go.

Perhaps though you will say, what if you were studying ducks?  Ducks surely would not so readily permit you into their group as the chimps have with Ms Goodall and of course you would be right.  However, there is a great deal of difference in intelligence between a duck and a chimpanzee (the duck being the slower of the two of course).

So, which would it be?  Would aliens integrate themselves with us to learn more just as Ms Goodall has done with Chimps or are we that cerebrally challenged to other biengs that we are though of along the lines of ducks?                                                  


#15    Burgundy Johnson

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Posted 20 May 2003 - 01:12 AM

                                                  Well, everyone has made really great points. But mabye, just mabye, one of their research methods is to show themselves just a bit. Mabye since the dawn of time, they have watched us, and now have enough knowledge of us to know we are not dangerous to them. And doesn't any researcher want to know how what he/she is researching would react under certain situations? I beleive that they have watched us, unnoticed, since the first life-forms were born. (mabye not THAT far...but you get the picture) Now, as someone said, we can't compare them to what humans would do, as they are a  different species, but what if, what if, they are just giving us some sort of test?

Thanks for all the great comments!! this site is the BEST

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