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Can God's existence be scientifically proved?

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#31    Leonardo

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 02:30 AM

View PostEver Learning, on 20 January 2014 - 02:25 AM, said:

if you look at my previous responses, you will see that you have changed what i have stated, into questions that don't disagree with what i have said but reaffirm it.

Go back to what you said here...

Quote

you can have an opinion of some one elses experience but you cant have a true understanding when you havent experienced it yourself.

What I am arguing, is that you cannot have a true understanding of any experience - even your own experiences - unless that experience can be objectified through a medium. A "god experience" cannot be so objectified - it is absolutely subjective and therefore the experiencer cannot truly understand it to be "of god" - they can only believe it to be so.

Edited by Leonardo, 20 January 2014 - 02:36 AM.

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"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

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#32    Leonardo

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 02:34 AM

View Postbendigger0, on 20 January 2014 - 02:28 AM, said:

How do you define love?

An emotional (neurochemical) response based on various 'triggers'.

How do you define love?

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#33    bendigger0

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 02:36 AM

View PostAwake2Chaos, on 20 January 2014 - 02:19 AM, said:

But that is your opinion, that is not fact.  How do you know that you are resonating with 'God'....what if it's something else, or something completely created by your mind?  If you 'feel' that God is there, then that is all that matters.  Someone asking for proof shouldn't ruffle your feathers in the least. You should ponder why it is though, that it bothers you that people ask for something more substantial than a simple, "I just know."
The reason it might (not really) "bother me" when asked for proof of the intangible, is because "proofs" are by definition tangible, and therefore inappropriate tools to define the unsubstantial.


#34    Ever Learning

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 02:36 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 20 January 2014 - 02:30 AM, said:

Go back to what you said here...



What I am arguing, is that you cannot have a true understanding of any experience - unless that experience can be objectified through a physical medium. A "god experience" cannot be so objectified - it is absolutely subjective and therefore the experiencer cannot truly understand it to be "of god" - they can only believe it to be so.
can it not be said with levels of non experience too? can i believe your none experience more than some one elses experience that seems closer to mine, even tho i cant believe truly in their experiences either? too tired going to bed, read my previous comment cus i edited with out realizing you had answered it

Edited by Ever Learning, 20 January 2014 - 02:37 AM.

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#35    bendigger0

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 02:42 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 20 January 2014 - 02:34 AM, said:

An emotional (neurochemical) response based on various 'triggers'.

How do you define love?
Love is an abiding spiritual (intangible, undefinable) connection with another sentient being.


#36    Leonardo

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 02:45 AM

View Postbendigger0, on 20 January 2014 - 02:42 AM, said:

Love is an abiding spiritual (intangible, undefinable) connection with another sentient being.

If you can't define it, how do you know it is love?

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#37    Awake2Chaos

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 02:48 AM

View Postbendigger0, on 20 January 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

The reason it might (not really) "bother me" when asked for proof of the intangible, is because "proofs" are by definition tangible, and therefore inappropriate tools to define the unsubstantial.

Exactly!

But you said here:

View Postbendigger0, on 20 January 2014 - 02:15 AM, said:


snip

Resonating with a primary source.  An undeniable fact.  I won't assert God's existence, 'cause i know it doesn't matter at all what man/woman believes.  It's what God believes that matters.

The way that statement comes across to me, is that God is an 'undeniable fact' for you.  But if proofs, or facts are a tangible, then how can you call 'resonating with a primary source an undeniable fact?'  That would lead me to believe you have 'proof', or something tangible, that lead you to that conclusion.


#38    bendigger0

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 03:16 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 20 January 2014 - 02:45 AM, said:

If you can't define it, how do you know it is love?
Love has a spiritual aspect.  It is the spiritual aspect that defies proof/definition.  Now, intangible aspects of being, like spirit, can extend into the realm of the paranormal.  My lament is the demand for 'proofs' when exploring paranormal events.  Scientific proofs are not possible in the realm of spirit.  Having a "soul" is not a matter of belief, though some critical thinkers will insist it is.  Soul, like the spiritual aspect of love, is forever intangible.  It is generally acknowledged, by those in the psychiatric professions that the sub-conscious mind of man/woman has knowledge unavailable to the conscious mind.  Does the unconscious mind use intellect?  No, it has direct knowing.


#39    bendigger0

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 03:17 AM

View PostAwake2Chaos, on 20 January 2014 - 02:48 AM, said:

Exactly!

But you said here:



The way that statement comes across to me, is that God is an 'undeniable fact' for you.  But if proofs, or facts are a tangible, then how can you call 'resonating with a primary source an undeniable fact?'  That would lead me to believe you have 'proof', or something tangible, that lead you to that conclusion.
The "resonating" is on a spiritual level.


#40    Paranoid Android

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 03:20 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 20 January 2014 - 02:23 AM, said:



Doesn't that mean the claim of existence of anything paranormal is equally "spurious"?
In a scientific arena, you're absolutely right. But humanity uses far more than science to interact with the world around us, and that just might possibly open the door to things of an unscientific nature.

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#41    taniwha

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 03:39 AM

It is true some people would still live in doubt even if God were to slap them in the face tomorrow.  To find God through science though you must first create a human being,  complete with mind, body and soul.  This will serve nicely as a spiritual antennae where God can be percieved using prayer and faith as tools.


#42    Rlyeh

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 02:57 PM

View Postbendigger0, on 19 January 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

There's way too many people shouting "prove it!" on this forum.  What's wrong with free flowing speculation?  The search for answers leads to lots of interesting questions.  To simply shout a demand for "proof!" is infantile and beyond the scope of a speculative forum.  Scientific inquiry is not the arbiter of truth.  Can you PROVE God exists?
Where is the speculation or search in regurgitating superstitious fantasy? I really need to know.

View Posttaniwha, on 20 January 2014 - 03:39 AM, said:

It is true some people would still live in doubt even if God were to slap them in the face tomorrow.  To find God through science though you must first create a human being,  complete with mind, body and soul.  This will serve nicely as a spiritual antennae where God can be percieved using prayer and faith as tools.
Until then pretend God did it.

Edited by Rlyeh, 20 January 2014 - 02:59 PM.


#43    Beany

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 04:58 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 20 January 2014 - 01:43 AM, said:

That is a rather speculative thing to claim about other people. As I said previously, how do you know these people have not had the same quality of experience, or epiphany, that led you to believe in god - except it led those people to explore psychology or neurology, etc?

Would those people be wrong to conclude their experience was born of their brain/mind just because you believe yours was born of god/deity? Can you be sure those experiences are actually qualitively different?

You make some good points. While some of it, most of it, may be speculative, I believe I have had a direct experience of the sacred/divine, not of God in the way he is perceived or defined in the Christian sense or even as a deity, and I use the terms sacred/divine as a means of expressing some intelligent energy greater than myself, and because I haven't been able to find a handy label for my experience. That said, I think my experiences have some shared qualities with Christianity and their deity. Over the years I've met people who have had an experience similar to mine; it has marked characteristics and identifiers, what varies is how the individual perceives & organizes it, explains it, reacts to it, etc,  It is not a common experience. A Christian friend explained it as an epiphany, a Native American friend calls it a download, and Maslow has come very close to capturing it in what he calls a "peak experience."  While the experience may or may not be religious, it is definitely mystical, but again, when talking about this stuff it's hard to quantify because it is subjective and our explanations are influenced by our past experiences, what we know, don't know, believe, etc. All we can do is bring those things to the table and engage our critical thinking skills to it. Here's a link to an article about Maslow's peak experience:  http://psychology.ab...experiences.htm

Sheesh, sorry for being so long-winded about this, but I'm trying to be as precise as possible about an experience which may or may not be related to the topic, again, how one perceives it or defines it is subjective. Anyway, I stopped worrying about defining it, cataloging it, explaining it, I'm not sure we even have the language to describe it, and language may in fact, obscure it or limit it instead of bringing clarity or understanding. As with all experiences in life we describe it or understand it according to our belief system and personal experiences, which may be inadequate to the task, but it's all we have. I don't think there is a right or wrong to how people describe it, what attributes they assign it, their beliefs about it. I can't make any claims about the "rightness" of my conclusions. At the end of the day, the most powerful thing about my experience was not that it happened, but how it changed me, my thinking, my perceptions, my actions, all for the better. That is the power of belief, not in the belief itself, but how we manifest it in the physical world, how or if it transforms us in someway, to either a lesser or greater degree. I hope this makes some kind of sense, this response isn't as adequate as I would like, but a more adequate response would require a lot more words. A couple of years ago there was long thread about this that was pinned, if you're interested I'll see if I can find it for you.

This is from a Wiki article about Divinity. When I say divine, I refer to the first definition:
Divinity as a quality has two distinct usages:

Edited by Beany, 20 January 2014 - 06:53 PM.


#44    taniwha

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 06:51 PM

Posted Imagetaniwha, on 20 January 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

It is true some people would still live in doubt even if God were to slap them in the face tomorrow.  To find God through science though you must first create a human being,  complete with mind, body and soul.  This will serve nicely as a spiritual antennae where God can be percieved using prayer and faith as tools.

View PostRlyeh, on 20 January 2014 - 02:57 PM, said:

Until then pretend God did it.

Lol.  Do you also 'pretend' that man created the universe? hahaha.

Edited by taniwha, 20 January 2014 - 06:53 PM.


#45    bendigger0

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 06:55 PM

View Posttaniwha, on 20 January 2014 - 03:39 AM, said:

It is true some people would still live in doubt even if God were to slap them in the face tomorrow.  To find God through science though you must first create a human being,  complete with mind, body and soul.  This will serve nicely as a spiritual antennae where God can be percieved using prayer and faith as tools.
Prayer yes... i don't see that 'faith' is tool or  method of knowing God.






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