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[Merged]The exorcisms of Latoya Ammons


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#211    JesseCuster

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 06:16 PM

View PostRafterman, on 27 February 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

On this week's Monstertalk podcast, host Blake Smith and Karen Stollznow offer a skeptical evaluation of the Gary, Indiana, demon case.  

For those of you convinced that this case is 100% legit, I challenge you to at least spent 40 minutes listening to a different take on the case.  

http://www.skeptic.c...rtalk/14/02/26/
Makes the whole story sound like those BS stories of Satanic ritual abuse that made the news in the 1980s.  A combination of lies, exagerrations, credulous investigators, highly religious people at the center of the story who firmly believe in demonic possession, etc. all coming together to make a not very believable event in which the only physical evidence is a crappy EVP and a crappy photo of a 'ghost'.

Edited by JesseCuster, 27 February 2014 - 06:17 PM.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman

"If people put enough excrement in one pile they think they can safely claim that there must be something other than excrement in a pile that big." - stereologist

#212    pallidin

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 06:25 PM

View PostJesseCuster, on 27 February 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

Makes the whole story sound like those BS stories of Satanic ritual abuse that made the news in the 1980s.  A combination of lies, exagerrations, credulous investigators, highly religious people at the center of the story who firmly believe in demonic possession, etc. all coming together to make a not very believable event in which the only physical evidence is a crappy EVP and a crappy photo of a 'ghost'.

Don't forget the police, hospital nurse and a CPS agent witness account.

EDIT: I use the term CPS agent as opposed to CPS case-worker because they have the authority to remove children to a more "protected" place, though both designations are often used regarding the same CPS person.

Edited by pallidin, 27 February 2014 - 06:32 PM.


#213    Rafterman

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 06:37 PM

View Postpallidin, on 27 February 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

Don't forget the police, hospital nurse and a CPS agent witness account.

For some reason you are latched onto these details.  If you read some of the actual reports (linked to the podcast link above), things sounds much more mundane than originally described.  

For example, the whole "ran up the wall to the ceiling backwards and then backflipped" thing.  Here's the actual intake officer's report (page 3):

"Child became aggressive and walked up the wall as if he was walking on the floor and did a flip over the grandmother"

Not exactly running up the wall backwards, is it?  In actuality, it sounds a lot like this:

https://www.youtube....h?v=pNd87-A4BGY

There are also quite a few experts involved in this case that think it's nothing more than a mentally ill mother and two sons who are acting out to simply please her.

Edited by Rafterman, 27 February 2014 - 06:37 PM.

"For me, it is better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
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#214    pallidin

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 07:01 PM

And, when was the last time you saw a non-martial artist(or etc...) walk-up a wall(without runninig torwards it; not much space to do that in a hospital room, not to mention that this is a very young kid we're talking about)

"Child became aggressive and walked up the wall as if he was walking on the floor and did a flip over the grandmother"

No mention of "running" at all.

I'm fairly certain that both the CPS agent and nurse would have described him as "running towards the wall"

They did not. He walked towards the wall, walked up the wall, and did a "back-flip" high enough to go over another person in that room who was close to that wall.

Highly improbable, if not impossible on a human-only scenario.

Edited by pallidin, 27 February 2014 - 07:25 PM.


#215    JesseCuster

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:10 PM

Quote

They did not. He walked towards the wall, walked up the wall, and did a "back-flip" high enough to go over another person in that room who was close to that wall.
Is that actually what happened?

There seems to be some confusion.

We have an intake officer saying that the child "walked up the wall as if he was walking on the floor and did a flip over the grandmother".

Yet another witness saying they saw the child "gliding" backward up the wall.

It seems confusing at best.  Some websites have the boy walking up the wall and ceiling, some gliding backward up the wall, some mentioning the backflip, others don't.

Which is it?  Did he walk up the wall "as if walking on the floor" or did he "glide backward up the wall"?

Did he backflip over the grandmother or not?

Did he walk or glide on the ceiling or was it merely the wall?

Why single out the word 'walk' in one eyewitness report to indicate that you believe the child didn't run when another witness says the child was 'gliding backwards' up the wall?

It's worth noting that the reporting of the story is (as I'd expect) not exactly thorough.  One news website has the incident being discussed in the hospital taking place in the family home.  Another has the same quote put into the mouths of two witnesses who didn't actually say the same thing.  Things like that.  Be wary of looking into things like this.  If possible, go straight to the source or as close to the source as possible and not on news websites which are not exactly renowned for their fact-checking when it comes to tales of the paranormal.

Edited by JesseCuster, 27 February 2014 - 09:20 PM.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman

"If people put enough excrement in one pile they think they can safely claim that there must be something other than excrement in a pile that big." - stereologist

#216    pallidin

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 09:44 PM

View PostJesseCuster, on 27 February 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

Is that actually what happened?

There seems to be some confusion.

We have an intake officer saying that the child "walked up the wall as if he was walking on the floor and did a flip over the grandmother".

Yet another witness saying they saw the child "gliding" backward up the wall.

It seems confusing at best.  Some websites have the boy walking up the wall and ceiling, some gliding backward up the wall, some mentioning the backflip, others don't.

Which is it?  Did he walk up the wall "as if walking on the floor" or did he "glide backward up the wall"?

Did he backflip over the grandmother or not?

Did he walk or glide on the ceiling or was it merely the wall?

Why single out the word 'walk' in one eyewitness report to indicate that you believe the child didn't run when another witness says the child was 'gliding backwards' up the wall?

It's worth noting that the reporting of the story is (as I'd expect) not exactly thorough.  One news website has the incident being discussed in the hospital taking place in the family home.  Another has the same quote put into the mouths of two witnesses who didn't actually say the same thing.  Things like that.  Be wary of looking into things like this.  If possible, go straight to the source or as close to the source as possible and not on news websites which are not exactly renowned for their fact-checking when it comes to tales of the paranormal.

Yes, there are definite unknowns here.

I saw the police captain interview, and it is compelling.

At the same time, I would like to see an "on-camera" interview with the nurse and the CPS person.

Though perhaps, given the supposed hospital setting, that they are not allowed under medical law. I don't know.


#217    Rafterman

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 04:30 PM

View Postpallidin, on 27 February 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

And, when was the last time you saw a non-martial artist(or etc...) walk-up a wall(without runninig torwards it; not much space to do that in a hospital room, not to mention that this is a very young kid we're talking about)

"Child became aggressive and walked up the wall as if he was walking on the floor and did a flip over the grandmother"

No mention of "running" at all.

I'm fairly certain that both the CPS agent and nurse would have described him as "running towards the wall"

They did not. He walked towards the wall, walked up the wall, and did a "back-flip" high enough to go over another person in that room who was close to that wall.

Highly improbable, if not impossible on a human-only scenario.

Jesse said it much better than I could.  One simply cannot accept the eyewitness testimony - even by professionals - at face value without fully understanding the biases they bring to the table - clearly, from their comments, many were believers in the paranormal.  Since they are predisposed to believe in things like demon possession, etc. that's the explanation they are immediately going to jump to when they witness the incidents that occurred in this case.  Just like many in this forum when they review the materials.

But when it comes to the wall walking bit, what is more likely in your opinion:

1.  A child did something that no one has ever been documented doing in the history of mankind.

2.  A child performing a simple gymnastics move that can easily be self taught via the internet.

Edited by Rafterman, 28 February 2014 - 04:34 PM.

"For me, it is better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
                                                                                                                                           - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World:  Science as a Candle in the Dark

#218    coldethyl

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 04:37 PM

The kid could just be really agile and talented and picked it up in PE or gym class.  Maybe he takes martial arts lessons and learned it there?

My nephew who is almost 6 was born with an innate ability to do practically any sport or contortion, it does happen.  He's destined for something sports related.  He was taking martial arts at 3 and was on an undefeated football team this past year.  He's fabulous.  Like his aunt.  lol


#219    MisterSuperGod

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 02:25 AM

Here's the thing. Why inhabit the body of a child then pull parlor tricks to show us puny humans how powerful he/they are?

Why not a tree like in the movie poltergeist?
Now that would blow minds.

Ever see a refrigerator consume a human being?
Of course not, powerful? i got power right here demons! (Pointing down at the love gun).

And... Done.

Edited by MisterSuperGod, 05 March 2014 - 02:27 AM.

MisterSuperGod is still Misanthropic


#220    JesseCuster

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 02:43 AM

View PostMisterSuperGod, on 05 March 2014 - 02:25 AM, said:

Here's the thing. Why inhabit the body of a child then pull parlor tricks to show us puny humans how powerful he/they are?

Why not a tree like in the movie poltergeist?
Now that would blow minds.
That's much too vulgar a display of power...

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman

"If people put enough excrement in one pile they think they can safely claim that there must be something other than excrement in a pile that big." - stereologist

#221    pallidin

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 03:45 AM

View PostJesseCuster, on 05 March 2014 - 02:43 AM, said:

That's much too vulgar a display of power...

I would agree. A "private" display of vulgar power is one thing, a "public" display is quite another.


#222    MisterSuperGod

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 03:51 AM

Pfft. My electric razor has more power. :P

MisterSuperGod is still Misanthropic


#223    pallidin

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 11:13 PM

View PostMisterSuperGod, on 05 March 2014 - 03:51 AM, said:

Pfft. My electric razor has more power. :P

Ha. Good one. But, not in this case.


#224    sea-dove

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:21 PM

View Postpallidin, on 03 February 2014 - 08:03 PM, said:

I wonder, how does the official CPS agent report, the official nurse report, and the official police report not validate this.

People would get sentenced for death for murder with  less witnesses.  If there was photos of all this, the disbelievers of this stuff would still be saying it wasnt validated and would just be calling the photos fakes.  

I learnt some time ago that you cant prove anything to anyone who just really doesnt want to believe (so its a waste of time trying).


#225    sea-dove

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Posted 10 April 2014 - 11:35 PM

View PostJesseCuster, on 27 February 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

Is that actually what happened?

There seems to be some confusion.

We have an intake officer saying that the child "walked up the wall as if he was walking on the floor and did a flip over the grandmother".

Yet another witness saying they saw the child "gliding" backward up the wall.

It seems confusing at best.  Some websites have the boy walking up the wall and ceiling, some gliding backward up the wall, some mentioning the backflip, others don't.

Which is it?  Did he walk up the wall "as if walking on the floor" or did he "glide backward up the wall"?

I'd like point out that its possible to both walk and glide at the same time.. so I figure its likely he may of been doing that (like Micheal Jacksons moonwalk).   I once saw my daughter who was young at the time (probably around this childs age, maybe a couple of years older at the time).  She was sleepwalking and this was creepy (the only time Ive ever seen her do this).  She slept walked up to a wall (before I was able to grab her) and actually kept walking (no not up the wall but into the walk, she just keep walking against the wall).. I cant explain it.. it was weird...some how she was doing a walk/glide on the spot against the wall.  I assume this child was walking in a similar way but with him, he's walked UP the wall and didnt keep walking at that wall using the same kind of creepy walk/glide.  It was unnatural.. how does someone with no training, a child keep walking once they get to a wall to make the action look so natural, so flowing?

  From my experience it is very creepy even without a child walking up a wall. If they said he took a few steps up the wall.. I may of thought they could just imagined that due to being creeped out but one says he walked up so high he went over the grandmothers head.   For a young boy of 7 years old to go over the head of an adult he must of had to get a fair way up that wall as he wouldnt be no where as near as tall as her, more then a few steps.

Edited by sea-dove, 10 April 2014 - 11:41 PM.





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