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Galaxy in the Voynich Manuscript?

telescope; c14; galaxy voynich manuscript earth

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#1    toast

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 10:24 PM

Yes, here is another one on the VM. Folio 68v of the manuscript shows 3 drawings and the focus here is on the left one,
I will name it D3. Compared with actual pics of spiral galaxies, D3 contains all the structural characteristics of a spiral
galaxy like a center, spiral arms, stars and an outer threshold. In addition, D3 shows a big blue dot in between a row
of stars.

For a better viewing I have extracted D3 from the pic and marked a red line from the center to the threshold, this line

walk across the blue dot. Picture 2 shows a graphic of our galaxy with the position of our sun. Also in pic 2 a line is
marked from the center to the threshold, passing the earth.

And now the math. The measuring unit for both red lines is %, so both red lines have a length of 100%. In the graphic,

earth has a distance from the center of the galaxy of approx. 41% of the radius and the blue dot in D3 has a distance
of approx. 35%. So, in D3 an object is marked that matches the distance proportion from earth to the galaxy center
by an accuracy level of <10%. Huh?

VM D3:
Posted Image

Graphic of our galaxy:
Posted Image

Facts: four pages, including 68v, of the VM were C14 dated to 1404-1438. The refracting telescope was developed
around 1600. Without any optical equipment, there are 5 (?) galaxies that can be seen with the naked eye but only
under best conditions: M31,M33,M81,LMC and SMC but it is impossible to see single stars let alone non-star objects
in these objects.

So the questions are: Fortuitousness? Faked VM? Wrong C14 dating? Development of the refracting telescope some
hundred years earlier as known yet?

PS: I know, 6 main arms in our galaxy, 8 “arms” in the drawing

Sources:
http://phys.org/news...xperts-age.html
http://www.bibliotec...nuscrito122.jpg

Edited by toast, 06 February 2014 - 10:26 PM.

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#2    scorpiosonic

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 11:46 PM

IMO, He is drawing what he saw-the entire Milky Way galaxy, and individual stars, not individual galaxies within the MW.

The drawing isn't very well done, and I'm not sure about the difference in the amount of arms.

Edited by scorpiosonic, 07 February 2014 - 12:02 AM.


#3    blackdogsun

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 12:05 AM

hi toast
this picture does indeed represent a map of the cosmos, in keeping with the common perceptions of the time.
if we take a closer look at the centre of the picture we can see that it is divided into three, a common simplification of a world map known as a 'T&O' map (see wikipedia).
so we can see that the artist has placed the world at the centre of the cosmos.
the blue dot on closer inspection looks to be just a blue ink blot smudged over one of the stars with more blue smudges at the bottom of the picture.
as for the spiral arms i don't have any examples from other contemporary works that would explain what these might represent.Posted Image


#4    jaylemurph

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 02:46 AM

I'm not sure galaxies are a very useful term for trying to explain this image. The m. comes from before telescopes were invented and none of the galaxies visible to the naked eye look like anything in the ms., just blobs. If you are suggesting it's a galaxy, then you have to explain how the manufacturer was able to see what no one else on Earth was for several centuries. Or why no stars appear in what you want to be the "arms" which are composed in real life of nothing but stars.

Saying this "is an image of a galaxy" probably just makes more obscure whatever (if anything at all) the author wanted to express.

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Posted Image

Deeply venial

#5    toast

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 08:59 AM

View Postjaylemurph, on 07 February 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

I'm not sure galaxies are a very useful term for trying to explain this image. The m. comes from before telescopes were invented and none of the galaxies visible to the naked eye look like anything in the ms., just blobs. If you are suggesting it's a galaxy, then you have to explain how the manufacturer was able to see what no one else on Earth was for several centuries.
Hi Jaylemurph,
that are 2 of the key questions here for which I do not have answers yet. So it cannot be explained how the manufacturer, if so, got informations about the design of a classic spiral galaxy, in the early 15th century.

View Postjaylemurph, on 07 February 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

Or why no stars appear in what you want to be the "arms" which are composed in real life of nothing but stars.
Distance? Or maybe as "stars in the arms" were not of interest for the general meaning of the drawing. Like e.g. citys or roads are not of interest in some topographic maps.

“For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.”  - Hunter S. Thompson -
"Very funny, Scotty, now beam down my trousers!" - James T. Kirk -
"I think enormous harm is done by religion – not just in the name of religion, but actually by religion." - Steven Weinberg -  
"I am discounting the reports of UFOs. Why would they appear only to cranks and weirdos?" - Stephen Hawking -

#6    Taun

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 12:17 PM

View Postblackdogsun, on 07 February 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

-snip-
as for the spiral arms i don't have any examples from other contemporary works that would explain what these might represent.

Aren't there supposed to have been 4 rivers that flowed into/out of Eden - according to Genesis?

perhaps that is what it's representing...


#7    Rlyeh

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 02:12 PM

View Postscorpiosonic, on 06 February 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

IMO, He is drawing what he saw-the entire Milky Way galaxy, and individual stars, not individual galaxies within the MW.
How did he see the entire Milky Way galaxy? And what does "individual galaxies within the MW" mean?


#8    toast

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 02:45 PM

View Postscorpiosonic, on 06 February 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

IMO, He is drawing what he saw-the entire Milky Way galaxy, and individual stars, not individual galaxies within the MW. The
drawing isn't very well done, and I'm not sure about the difference in the amount of arms.

The spiral galaxy pattern of our galaxy cannot be visual imaged from earth. And, MW is a galaxy so no other galaxies within.

“For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.”  - Hunter S. Thompson -
"Very funny, Scotty, now beam down my trousers!" - James T. Kirk -
"I think enormous harm is done by religion – not just in the name of religion, but actually by religion." - Steven Weinberg -  
"I am discounting the reports of UFOs. Why would they appear only to cranks and weirdos?" - Stephen Hawking -

#9    scorpiosonic

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 03:29 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 07 February 2014 - 02:12 PM, said:

How did he see the entire Milky Way galaxy? And what does "individual galaxies within the MW" mean?

My meaning was he drew the entire portion of the Milky Way galaxy he could see. Also, there are individual galaxies within the Milky Way, but he didn't draw them. According to my celestial map, there are many, many galaxies of several types within the Milky Way.


View Posttoast, on 07 February 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

The spiral galaxy pattern of our galaxy cannot be visual imaged from earth. And, MW is a galaxy so no other galaxies within.

True the spiral pattern can't be seen from earth. IF he could've seen them he would've drawn 6 arms.

Quoting Toast, "Distance? Or maybe as "stars in the arms" were not of interest for the general meaning of the drawing. Like e.g. citys or roads are not of interest in some topographic maps."

IF he was drawing a spiral galaxy, the stars in the arms of that Galaxy ARE important, and of interest....BUT, He didn't draw a spiral galaxy pattern, he drew part of the Milky Way, with unexplained arms that don't have any stars in them, but do have some writing in them. (Can anyone read these words??? This would be helpful!)

According to my celestial map, there are many, many galaxies of several types within the Milky Way.
(Maybe we should be calling it the MW family of Galaxies.)

Edited by scorpiosonic, 07 February 2014 - 03:38 PM.


#10    Rlyeh

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 03:36 PM

View Postscorpiosonic, on 07 February 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Also, there are individual galaxies within the Milky Way, but he didn't draw them. According to my celestial map, there are many, many galaxies of several types within the Milky Way.
Has these galaxies been confirmed by observation?


#11    toast

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 03:42 PM

View Postscorpiosonic, on 07 February 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Can anyone read these words??? This would be helpful!
:blink:

View Postscorpiosonic, on 07 February 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

According to my celestial map, there are many, many galaxies of several types within the Milky Way.

That´s correct but we are talking here about the 15th century when spiral galaxy design was unknown.

Edited by toast, 07 February 2014 - 03:43 PM.

“For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.”  - Hunter S. Thompson -
"Very funny, Scotty, now beam down my trousers!" - James T. Kirk -
"I think enormous harm is done by religion – not just in the name of religion, but actually by religion." - Steven Weinberg -  
"I am discounting the reports of UFOs. Why would they appear only to cranks and weirdos?" - Stephen Hawking -

#12    scorpiosonic

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 04:16 PM

Hi Toast, I stand by what I stated, "Can anyone read these words??? This would be helpful" ....to interpret the meaning of this drawing.


We are talking about a 15th century drawing that depicts part of the Milky Way as seen from earth, NOT a drawing of an individual spiral galaxy within the MW.


#13    scorpiosonic

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 04:21 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 07 February 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

Has these galaxies been confirmed by observation?

Yes, my celestial map was made in 1980, they used hi-powered telescopes. Then w/ careful observations and measurement they compiled this ACCURATE map.


#14    toast

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 05:50 PM

View Postscorpiosonic, on 07 February 2014 - 04:16 PM, said:

Hi Toast, I stand by what I stated, "Can anyone read these words??? This would be helpful" ....to interpret the meaning of this drawing.
Mate, nobody on this planet can read these words.

Edited by toast, 07 February 2014 - 05:51 PM.

“For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.”  - Hunter S. Thompson -
"Very funny, Scotty, now beam down my trousers!" - James T. Kirk -
"I think enormous harm is done by religion – not just in the name of religion, but actually by religion." - Steven Weinberg -  
"I am discounting the reports of UFOs. Why would they appear only to cranks and weirdos?" - Stephen Hawking -

#15    toast

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 07:55 PM

View Postblackdogsun, on 07 February 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

hi toast
this picture does indeed represent a map of the cosmos, in keeping with the common perceptions of the time.
if we take a closer look at the centre of the picture we can see that it is divided into three, a common simplification of a world map known as a 'T&O' map (see wikipedia). so we can see that the artist has placed the world at the centre of the cosmos.
the blue dot on closer inspection looks to be just a blue ink blot smudged over one of the stars with more blue smudges at the bottom of the picture.
as for the spiral arms i don't have any examples from other contemporary works that would explain what these might represent.

Hi blackdogsun,
good additional info, thanks for that. Re: the blue dot, you are right but if I judge this from a perspective of a
maximum-hardcore-CT persons point of view it was done dot-like to not get into focus of the inquisitions executives.

Edited by toast, 07 February 2014 - 07:57 PM.

“For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.”  - Hunter S. Thompson -
"Very funny, Scotty, now beam down my trousers!" - James T. Kirk -
"I think enormous harm is done by religion – not just in the name of religion, but actually by religion." - Steven Weinberg -  
"I am discounting the reports of UFOs. Why would they appear only to cranks and weirdos?" - Stephen Hawking -





Also tagged with telescope;, c14;, galaxy, voynich manuscript, earth

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