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The question of Life

life evolution intelligence

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#1    taniwha

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 02:57 AM

Where does life come from?  How was it formed?  What is it?  

Science has meticulously poked and prodded this riddle and uncovered a puzzle... they simply dont know.  Or at least the very stronghold of evolution theory is challenged when placed under the microscope alongside the theory of intelligent design.

Does evolution theory even have any weight in the modern world?

http://www.thescienc...mystery-of.html

There is compelling evidence for some type of as yet unexplained intelligence responsible for the information within biological cells.
Are evolution and intelligent design simply two sides of the same coin?  
Can life really spring from inanimate matter as if by magic?
Or is there an other explanation?

One way or another I am finding the intrigue of intelligent design far from speculative and a theory which warrants closer investigation as we enter deeper into 2014.

What do you think?  Your ideas are welcome, thanks.


#2    Arbenol

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 03:15 AM

Questions on the origin of life are outside of the scope of evolutionary theory.

The article you linked to was badly (and confusingly) written and, as far as I could see, made no reference to intelligent causation of life. In fact, if anything, it seems to point to a hypothesis that under certain circumstances life is inevitable.

Just to clarify, why do you believe that your link supports "compelling evidence" for intelligent design?

And no, I don't believe evolutionary theory and ID are two sides of the same coin. They are diametrically opposed. ID claims that natural processes cannot explain what evolutionary theory says it can.


#3    taniwha

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 03:24 AM

View PostArbenol68, on 09 February 2014 - 03:15 AM, said:

Questions on the origin of life are outside of the scope of evolutionary theory.

The article you linked to was badly (and confusingly) written and, as far as I could see, made no reference to intelligent causation of life. In fact, if anything, it seems to point to a hypothesis that under certain circumstances life is inevitable.

Just to clarify, why do you believe that your link supports "compelling evidence" for intelligent design?

And no, I don't believe evolutionary theory and ID are two sides of the same coin. They are diametrically opposed. ID claims that natural processes cannot explain what evolutionary theory says it can.

Yes I agree evolution theory is extremely limited.

How would you explain biological motors that are constructed and function like engines within living cells?

As for the article its hypothesis of life is unsupported and in my opinion lends no more weight to evolution theory but this is not meant as a one sided debate but hopefully an educational one.

Edited by taniwha, 09 February 2014 - 03:28 AM.


#4    ReaperS_ParadoX

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 03:28 AM

Hasn't this question already been asked a lot of different times in a lot of different ways?

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#5    Arbenol

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 03:31 AM

No. I didn't say it was limited. It does exactly what it sets out to do. It explains how all life is descended from a common ancestor. To say it is limited because it can't explain the origin of life is like saying your car is limited because it can't fly.

As to your second part. Do you mean like bacterial flagellum (the poster child of the ID movement). I'm not a biologist - at least not for the last 25 years. But here's a link with references to address that point:

http://www.millerand...n2/article.html

It addresses the main arguments of irreducible complexity (which is what I think you refer to).


#6    taniwha

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 03:38 AM

View PostReaperS_ParadoX, on 09 February 2014 - 03:28 AM, said:

Hasn't this question already been asked a lot of different times in a lot of different ways?

Sorry to rehash then, but I did enter 'life' into the forum search engine.  It is an age old question and so far has not been conclusively answered. Maybe it will remain a mystery and no answer exists.  That will never stop mankind looking.  Seeking answers on the net I am less than satisfied with evolutionary evidence so far.


#7    taniwha

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 03:50 AM

View PostArbenol68, on 09 February 2014 - 03:31 AM, said:

No. I didn't say it was limited. It does exactly what it sets out to do. It explains how all life is descended from a common ancestor. To say it is limited because it can't explain the origin of life is like saying your car is limited because it can't fly.

As to your second part. Do you mean like bacterial flagellum (the poster child of the ID movement). I'm not a biologist - at least not for the last 25 years. But here's a link with references to address that point:

http://www.millerand...n2/article.html

It addresses the main arguments of irreducible complexity (which is what I think you refer to).

I dont know about the car cant fly analogy to describe evolutions short fallings because a car is clearly meant to be driven.  

Yes I was referring to bacterial flagellum.  There is a lot to read in your link so if you could edit in your own words?  How is information of DNA explained by evolution if not a source of intelligent design I wonder?


#8    spacecowboy342

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 04:02 AM

View Posttaniwha, on 09 February 2014 - 03:50 AM, said:

I dont know about the car cant fly analogy to describe evolutions short fallings because a car is clearly meant to be driven.  

Yes I was referring to bacterial flagellum.  There is a lot to read in your link so if you could edit in your own words?  How is information of DNA explained by evolution if not a source of intelligent design I wonder?
What you are looking for isn't evolution but abiogenesis which is an open question. DNA could not have been the origin of life. The question is how self-replicating polymers began. Intelligent design is just a substitute for natural selection and is not necessary to explain evolution


#9    taniwha

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 04:14 AM

It seems odd that evolution if true isnt in the process of evolving before our eyes.  Life is abundant enough but where are the new species at?  What is there left for life to evolve into or become anyway?

What would be the ultimate evolutionary design?  Have we already hit the limit of the scale?

Edited by taniwha, 09 February 2014 - 04:17 AM.


#10    Arbenol

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 04:17 AM

View Posttaniwha, on 09 February 2014 - 03:50 AM, said:



I dont know about the car cant fly analogy to describe evolutions short fallings because a car is clearly meant to be driven.  

Yes I was referring to bacterial flagellum.  There is a lot to read in your link so if you could edit in your own words?  How is information of DNA explained by evolution if not a source of intelligent design I wonder?

I'm confused what you're discussing here. You seem to be mixing up evolution and abiogenesis.

The car analogy was that, like your car is designed only to drive, the purpose of evolutionary theory is only to describe how life has proliferated from common descent.

Asking evolution to explain origin of life is like asking your car to fly. That's not its purpose.

And your putting words in my mouth. I have not referred to evolutions short fallings. It adequately describes what it sets out to do.

It might be helpful if you would clarify exactly the purpose of the thread. Is it to discuss the origin of life, or to debate the virtues of ID as an alternative to evolutionary theory. Because they are two different things.

As for the link. I think Ken Miller's writing is concise, succinct and clear.


#11    taniwha

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 04:28 AM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 09 February 2014 - 04:02 AM, said:

What you are looking for isn't evolution but abiogenesis which is an open question. DNA could not have been the origin of life. The question is how self-replicating polymers began. Intelligent design is just a substitute for natural selection and is not necessary to explain evolution

Yes how it all began is at the root of the problem.  You say DNA could not have been the origin of life so I wonder if the first life forms would have contained DNA at all and what they might have looked like or reproduced.


#12    taniwha

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 04:41 AM

View PostArbenol68, on 09 February 2014 - 04:17 AM, said:

I'm confused what you're discussing here. You seem to be mixing up evolution and abiogenesis.

The car analogy was that, like your car is designed only to drive, the purpose of evolutionary theory is only to describe how life has proliferated from common descent.

Asking evolution to explain origin of life is like asking your car to fly. That's not its purpose.

And your putting words in my mouth. I have not referred to evolutions short fallings. It adequately describes what it sets out to do.

It might be helpful if you would clarify exactly the purpose of the thread. Is it to discuss the origin of life, or to debate the virtues of ID as an alternative to evolutionary theory. Because they are two different things.

As for the link. I think Ken Miller's writing is concise, succinct and clear.

Yes thanks for making yourself clear.  The purpose of the thread is to discuss the origins of life, its theories and merits as opposed to just intelligent design.  And yes as yourself and spacecowboy have correctly pointed out,  abiogenesis is what I refer to but I disregard this concept.  Life springing from inanimate matter... Hmmmm?  I

If there is another theory apart from that then I am interested to hear it.  As for evolution my questions of that remain.


#13    and then

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 05:33 AM

Has there been an occurrence of life being spontaneously begun in the modern world?  If I understand this correctly (I doubt that I'm capable of it frankly) it seems we are saying that the "common ancestor" came about from nothing and without a plan.  All the cells and molecules simply interconnected randomly until the exact right combinations and energy levels -"started the motor" so to speak.  If that happened once then should it not be expected to happen more than once?  Just curious.  I have no doubts whatsoever about the role of natural selection.  For that there is enough evidence to go on with.  But the actual beginning of life?  Not so much.

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#14    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 05:40 AM

Do we really have to have this same conversation every few months?

I and others have explained evolutionary theory, why nothing is irreducibly complex, hypothesis on the origin of life, what natural selection is, etc, multiple, multiple times. One thread went well over 100 pages.

You can not believe in evolution all you want, it happens independent of your disbelief.

Edited by Imaginarynumber1, 09 February 2014 - 05:43 AM.

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#15    taniwha

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 06:57 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 09 February 2014 - 05:40 AM, said:

Do we really have to have this same conversation every few months?

I and others have explained evolutionary theory, why nothing is irreducibly complex, hypothesis on the origin of life, what natural selection is, etc, multiple, multiple times. One thread went well over 100 pages.

You can not believe in evolution all you want, it happens independent of your disbelief.

Why be so concerned?  Science hasnt stopped asking the question so why should we? Difficult questions are a problem I and others enjoy attempting to resolve and the link I put in post #1 is from 31 Jan this year.  But I would agree that the content seems a bit hit and miss.  Has there been other recent light shed on this subject?

I predict that if others feel this question is beating the same humdrum as other threads then it will die a natural death and no egos need feel threatened.

Evolution might help theorize why humans  dont have flippers or a blowhole anymore but it stands as no more than what it says... theory.  That leaves room for other ideas and this thread doesnt mind asking others for theirs.

So im not trying to inflame emotions but rather ignite healthy discussion on this true unsolved mystery.  At the end of the day it is not compulsory for members to comment but please feel free to disagree.

Edited by taniwha, 09 February 2014 - 07:07 AM.






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