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#1    Paranoid Android

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:17 PM

Osiris, Isis, Horus - the Egyptian "trinity".

Zeus, Poseidon, Hades - the Greek "trinity".

Vishnu, Shiva, Ahura Mazda - the Hindu "trinity".

And more besides! In various contexts these are all said to be typical deity relationships in ancient beliefs. This then leads to the Christian "trinity" of Father, Son, and Spirit, and how these concepts found their way into Christian theology. What I'd like to know is what is so special about these other trinities that they get compared to Christian theology? Osiris and Isis were siblings, quadruplets even (Seth and Nut were fellow siblings), not even mentioning other Egyptian gods like Ra, Anubis, Hathor, et al. Zeus fathered the Demi-god hercules, was the "father of the gods" including Thor, Apollo, Athena, Hera, and more. Vishnu, Shiva, Ahura Mazda, were all incarnations of Brahman, as are millions of other Hindu deities such as Krishna (often cited as a Christ copycat, but this isn't a copycat thread, so I'll ignore that for the purpose this thread).

In an historical context I'd very much like to know what's so special about these "trinities" that they are seen as templates of Christian trinitarian theology while the obvious differences are overlooked completely?

Or, as I suspect, the "similarities" are not quite so profound as made out to be. Due to current time restrictions I can't pledge to respond quickly to this thread, but I will read all responses and note any legitimate historical commentary that proves a "borrowing" situation in these matters.

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#2    davros of skaro

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 12:50 PM

Do not forget the "Capitoline Triad" of the ancient Roman Religion.

http://www.vroma.org...s/captriad.html

Going from memory, the Christian Trinity is a 2nd century, and later theological concept.

Posted Image

Edited by davros of skaro, 11 February 2014 - 01:02 PM.

Posted Image
Leviticus 14 2 Peter 1:16
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https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "The Mythical Jesus"
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#3    GreenmansGod

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 03:34 PM

I think it shows humans like patterns.  Putting things in threes makes things easy to remember, too.  When these religions were getting started most people couldn't write and you had to remember things in your head. People also visually like triangles and you see them all over the ancient world.  It says it a lot about religion being a creation of man and not from an outside supernatural source.

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#4    ambelamba

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 05:34 PM

It's a rather popular them back in the days. But in case of Christian Trinity, it seems like they tried to merge two contradictory concept into one.

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#5    dlonewolf85

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 07:11 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 11 February 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

Osiris, Isis, Horus - the Egyptian "trinity".

Zeus, Poseidon, Hades - the Greek "trinity".

Vishnu, Shiva, Ahura Mazda - the Hindu "trinity".

And more besides! In various contexts these are all said to be typical deity relationships in ancient beliefs. This then leads to the Christian "trinity" of Father, Son, and Spirit, and how these concepts found their way into Christian theology. What I'd like to know is what is so special about these other trinities that they get compared to Christian theology? Osiris and Isis were siblings, quadruplets even (Seth and Nut were fellow siblings), not even mentioning other Egyptian gods like Ra, Anubis, Hathor, et al. Zeus fathered the Demi-god hercules, was the "father of the gods" including Thor, Apollo, Athena, Hera, and more. Vishnu, Shiva, Ahura Mazda, were all incarnations of Brahman, as are millions of other Hindu deities such as Krishna (often cited as a Christ copycat, but this isn't a copycat thread, so I'll ignore that for the purpose this thread).

In an historical context I'd very much like to know what's so special about these "trinities" that they are seen as templates of Christian trinitarian theology while the obvious differences are overlooked completely?

Or, as I suspect, the "similarities" are not quite so profound as made out to be. Due to current time restrictions I can't pledge to respond quickly to this thread, but I will read all responses and note any legitimate historical commentary that proves a "borrowing" situation in these matters.


I just wanted to point out that the Hindu "trinity" is actually Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.(Brahma and Brahman are different things - the former is a deity and the other roughly means the universe in its entirety) Plus, Ahura Mazda is a Zoroastrian deity from ancient Iran.

Also, Krishna allegedly died in 3102 BC, which marks the beginning of the Kali Yuga or the final stage of the cycle of Yugas before the dissolution of all life (or the way of life) and the re-creation of everything anew (much like the Mayan cycles of the calender).

Sorry, but that's all I wanted to contribute to this thread. No offence, but I think you should make informed statements in your post, PA.


P.S. - I am an atheist but I'm also from India. And I mean no disrespect but I feel that Google can come in very handy in these modern times. Also, good thread btw. Please carry on with the discussion. :)

Edited by dlonewolf85, 11 February 2014 - 07:14 PM.

∂ Ѡοɭ ʄ85

#6    Paranoid Android

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:43 AM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 11 February 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

Do not forget the "Capitoline Triad" of the ancient Roman Religion.

http://www.vroma.org...s/captriad.html
Yes, as I said, there are many alleged trinities, except there aren't! There are dozens, if not hundreds or thousands of deities, of which modern man had chosen three because they want to think the Trinity is a pagan concept.

Unless there is actual historical evidence that there are "three" divine deities in each culture, which this thread is designed to find out about. So far the responses have lacked historical backing.


Quote

Going from memory, the Christian Trinity is a 2nd century, and later theological concept.

Posted Image
Going from textual evidence, the Christian Trinity is espoused frequently in 1st century texts, though the ability of early Christians to theologically express this notion didn't develop fully until the 2nd century.

Posted Image

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#7    Paranoid Android

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:50 AM

View PostGreenmansGod, on 11 February 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

I think it shows humans like patterns.  Putting things in threes makes things easy to remember, too.  When these religions were getting started most people couldn't write and you had to remember things in your head. People also visually like triangles and you see them all over the ancient world.  It says it a lot about religion being a creation of man and not from an outside supernatural source.
I think you've overlooked the point of my question. I www seeking ancient evidence they these deities were considered special in their "three-ness". Isis and Osiris had two siblings, and that doesn't even account for the other Egyptian deities. Do why/when/how did Osiris/Isis/Horus become special and separate? The only places on the net I've seen that group these three together as special is pp. sites that specifically argue trinitarian correlation. No general source on Egyptian mythology ever makes a link between these three as substantially different to any other Egyptian deity. Same for any other ancient pantheon. Unless I'm missing something from the historical/mythological Eugene, which is what I'm asking for - ancient evidence that these deities were actually a "trinity".

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#8    Paranoid Android

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:57 AM

View Postdlonewolf85, on 11 February 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:




I just wanted to point out that the Hindu "trinity" is actually Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.(Brahma and Brahman are different things - the former is a deity and the other roughly means the universe in its entirety) Plus, Ahura Mazda is a Zoroastrian deity from ancient Iran.

Also, Krishna allegedly died in 3102 BC, which marks the beginning of the Kali Yuga or the final stage of the cycle of Yugas before the dissolution of all life (or the way of life) and the re-creation of everything anew (much like the Mayan cycles of the calender).

Sorry, but that's all I wanted to contribute to this thread. No offence, but I think you should make informed statements in your post, PA.


P.S. - I am an atheist but I'm also from India. And I mean no disrespect but I feel that Google can come in very handy in these modern times. Also, good thread btw. Please carry on with the discussion. :)
Thanks for the info, in a way you've actually confirmed the premise of my thread. My citing of Vishnu, Shiva, and Ahura Mazda was based on popular mythicist claims that the Christian trinity was "stolen" from other belief systems. I was repeating popular claims, as it goes.

But if you have ancient source evidence that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva were considered special and triune as opposed to the thousands of other emanations of Brahman, I'd like to hear about it - that is the purpose of this thread, after all.

Edited by Paranoid Android, 12 February 2014 - 03:19 AM.

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#9    029b10

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 04:35 AM

Humm, so where did Science get the three states of Matter:  Solid, Liquid & Gas?

View Postambelamba, on 11 February 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

It's a rather popular them back in the days. But in case of Christian Trinity, it seems like they tried to merge two contradictory concept into one.

If not mistaken, are you referring unto 1 John 5:7-8?

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Science now holds that there are 4 states of Matter,  Solid, Liquid, Gas, and Plasm [ionized gas].  However, in Genesis it appears that the LORD God formed man from the dust [Solid] of the ground and breath into the nostrils of man the breath of life [Gas].  However, in the Gospel it is written that the Spirit taught the teacher to marvel not, that man must be born also born of water [Liquid] and Spirit [Phasm] to enter the Kingdom of Truth.

But the same Spirit taught that man can not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.

Edited by 029b10, 12 February 2014 - 04:57 AM.

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#10    davros of skaro

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 11:57 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 12 February 2014 - 02:43 AM, said:

Yes, as I said, there are many alleged trinities, except there aren't! There are dozens, if not hundreds or thousands of deities, of which modern man had chosen three because they want to think the Trinity is a pagan concept.

Unless there is actual historical evidence that there are "three" divine deities in each culture, which this thread is designed to find out about. So far the responses have lacked historical backing.


Going from textual evidence, the Christian Trinity is espoused frequently in 1st century texts, though the ability of early Christians to theologically express this notion didn't develop fully until the 2nd century.

It's just comparing apples to oranges, and besides the Muslims think Christians are Polytheists because of the Trinity concept.

Only difference between the Capitoline Triad ruling over a pantheon of Gods, and the Trinity ruling over Angels is that people with voices in their heads are still pushing the Trinity.

The Father, the Son, and the worse crime of all deny the Holy Spirit are just remnants of Man's mental handicaps that no longer serve a purpose except to backslide the rest of us.

http://en.wikipedia....apitoline_Triad

https://www.youtube....h?v=qyHI2foecLI

Posted Image
Leviticus 14 2 Peter 1:16
http://m.youtube.com...h?v=MzrIHdN9O7M <-- "Ten Lies About Jesus"
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "The Mythical Jesus"
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <--Science of belief

#11    GreenmansGod

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 05:07 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 12 February 2014 - 02:50 AM, said:

I think you've overlooked the point of my question. I www seeking ancient evidence they these deities were considered special in their "three-ness". Isis and Osiris had two siblings, and that doesn't even account for the other Egyptian deities. Do why/when/how did Osiris/Isis/Horus become special and separate? The only places on the net I've seen that group these three together as special is pp. sites that specifically argue trinitarian correlation. No general source on Egyptian mythology ever makes a link between these three as substantially different to any other Egyptian deity. Same for any other ancient pantheon. Unless I'm missing something from the historical/mythological Eugene, which is what I'm asking for - ancient evidence that these deities were actually a "trinity".

I agree with devo, it is comparing apples to oranges.  Each religion is it's own view on Gods and the supernatural. There are some religions which are related because their origins are related by geography and people take ideas from others and mix them in their own. Like Christmas, people are not going to stop a party because the religion changes they just incorporate the old in the new. The history of religion is a complex trail.  I guess that is why it interestes me. When people tell me all religions are the same, IMO, they are same as in we are all humans, beyond that I don't really see it in the evidence.  The more I look at religion the more I am amazed at the creativity of the human mind.

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#12    Jor-el

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 08:53 PM

Most people who would argue

View Postambelamba, on 11 February 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

It's a rather popular them back in the days. But in case of Christian Trinity, it seems like they tried to merge two contradictory concept into one.

Except the term "Christian Trinity" is an erroneous concept, christians didn't invente the concept nor did they need to copy the concept from other religions, it is clearly evidente throughout the Old Testament. As can be seen in a number of passages like the following from the Jewish Targums...

Targum Onkelos

And they heard the voice of the Word of the Lord God walking in the garden in the evening of the day; and Adam and his wife hid themselves from before the Lord God among the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, Where art thou?

And he said, The voice of Thy Word heard I in the garden, and I was afraid, because I (was) naked, and I would hide.

The Targum of Palestine

Walking in the garden in the strength of the day......And the Word of the Lord God called to Adam, and said to him, Behold, the world which I have created is manifest before Me; and how thinkest thou that the place in the midst whereof thou art, is not revealed before Me? Where is the commandment which I taught thee?

And he said, The voice of Thy Word heard I in the garden, and I was afraid, because I am naked; and the commandment which Thou didst teach me, I have transgressed; therefore I hid myself from shame.


It seems that the "Word", is God but isn't, and this is repeated many times in diferent ways throughout the Old Testament, dozens of times, not just a few times here and there. It was so evidente that John 1:1 recites the concept verbatim. Yet how many times have we seen people reject the trinity, as a christian invention or a stolen concept from another religion?

Edited by Jor-el, 12 February 2014 - 08:54 PM.

Posted Image


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#13    ChloeB

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:59 AM

View PostParanoid Android, on 11 February 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

Osiris, Isis, Horus - the Egyptian "trinity".

Zeus, Poseidon, Hades - the Greek "trinity".

Vishnu, Shiva, Ahura Mazda - the Hindu "trinity".

And more besides! In various contexts these are all said to be typical deity relationships in ancient beliefs. This then leads to the Christian "trinity" of Father, Son, and Spirit, and how these concepts found their way into Christian theology. What I'd like to know is what is so special about these other trinities that they get compared to Christian theology? Osiris and Isis were siblings, quadruplets even (Seth and Nut were fellow siblings), not even mentioning other Egyptian gods like Ra, Anubis, Hathor, et al. Zeus fathered the Demi-god hercules, was the "father of the gods" including Thor, Apollo, Athena, Hera, and more. Vishnu, Shiva, Ahura Mazda, were all incarnations of Brahman, as are millions of other Hindu deities such as Krishna (often cited as a Christ copycat, but this isn't a copycat thread, so I'll ignore that for the purpose this thread).

In an historical context I'd very much like to know what's so special about these "trinities" that they are seen as templates of Christian trinitarian theology while the obvious differences are overlooked completely?

Or, as I suspect, the "similarities" are not quite so profound as made out to be. Due to current time restrictions I can't pledge to respond quickly to this thread, but I will read all responses and note any legitimate historical commentary that proves a "borrowing" situation in these matters.

Quote


Man’s life on earth has only one end and purpose: to identify himself with his eternal Self and so to come to unitive knowledge of the Divine Ground.
In Hinduism the first of these four doctrines is stated in the most categorical terms. The Divine Ground is Brahman, whose creative, sustaining and transforming aspects are manifested the Hindu trinity. A hierarchy of manifestations connects inanimate matter with man, gods, High Gods, and the undifferentiated Godhead beyond.
In Mahayana Buddhism the Divine Ground is called Mind or the Pure Light of the Void, the place of the High Gods is taken by the Dhyani-Buddhas.
Similar conceptions are perfectly compatible with Christianity and have in fact been entertained, explicitly or implicitly, by many Catholic and Protestant mystics, when formulating a philosophy to fit facts observed by super-rational intuition. Thus, for Eckhart and Ruysbroeck, there is an Abyss of Godhead underlying the Trinity, just as Brahman underlies Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Suso has even left a diagrammatic picture of the relations subsisting between Godhead, triune God and creatures. In this very curious and interesting drawing a chain of manifestation connects the mysterious symbol of the Divine Ground with the three Persons of the Trinity, and the Trinity in turn is connected in a descending scale with angels and human beings. These last, as the drawing vividly shows, may make one of two choices. They can either live the life of the outer man, the life of the separative selfhood; in which case they are lost (for, in the words of the Theologia Germanica, “nothing burns in hell but the self”). Or else they can identify themselves with the inner man, in which case it becomes possible for them, as Suso shows, to ascend again, through unitive knowledge, to the Trinity and even, beyond they Trinity, to the ultimate Unity of the Divine Ground.
http://parvati.tripo.../perennial.html

Quote

In "A Psychological Approach to the Doctrine of the Trinity",[6] again by tenet #1 Jung interprets the Father as the self, the source of energy within the psyche; the Son as an emergent structure of consciousness that replaces the self-alienated ego; and the Holy Spirit as a mediating structure between the ego and the self. However, Jung believed that the psyche moves toward completion in fours (made up of pairs of opposites), and that therefore (using tenet #3 above) the Christian formulation of the Trinity would give way to a quaternity by including missing aspects (e.g. the feminine and evil). (This analysis prompted Jung to send a congratulatory note to Pope Pius XII in 1950 upon the adoption of the doctrine of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, to wit completing the quaternity.)
http://en.wikipedia....ion_of_religion

http://en.wikipedia....ion_of_religion

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#14    Almagest

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 10:34 AM

View Post029b10, on 12 February 2014 - 04:35 AM, said:

Humm, so where did Science get the three states of Matter:  Solid, Liquid & Gas?

If not mistaken, are you referring unto 1 John 5:7-8?

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Science now holds that there are 4 states of Matter,  Solid, Liquid, Gas, and Plasm [ionized gas].  However, in Genesis it appears that the LORD God formed man from the dust [Solid] of the ground and breath into the nostrils of man the breath of life [Gas].  However, in the Gospel it is written that the Spirit taught the teacher to marvel not, that man must be born also born of water [Liquid] and Spirit [Phasm] to enter the Kingdom of Truth.

But the same Spirit taught that man can not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.

What you've got there is the four classical elements; Earth, Water, Air and Fire. It certainly didn't take them from the New Testament if that's what you're trying to say,

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#15    eight bits

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 11:02 AM

Chloe

Greetings!

On this one, I wonder about Uncle Carl. The bodily assumption of Mary into Heaven is an old doctrine (otherwise the Pope couldn't have defined it "infallibly"). More so than most people, Jung would have known all that. His reaction, then, was disproportionate to the actual advance.

It is interesting that Christian apologists, very much including Protestants (many of whom consciously reject any special continuing role for Mary at all), project onto Mohammed a supposed "mistake" that the Christian Trinity is Father, Mother and Son, based on a Koran passage that says no such thing. Both Jung and Freud can wink knowingly to each other what that means the apologists' unacknowledged attitude toward Mary probably is like.

I would propose a Jungian solution and wonder that it was not Jung's. The Orthodox point of bodily ascension would be assurance that Mary now participates in theosis - she isn't a goddess, but rather a person all but indistinguishable from God. This is supposedly the good outcome for all human beings, but here and now, Mary would be the only human to have achieved this estate. So, there is your quaternity, without any revision to the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity.

(I used Eastern Orthodox terminology. Supposedly Catholics' beatific vision is the same as theosis, although I sense the Easterners are more plainspoken that it means asymptotic unity with the Godhead. Among Protestants, Anglicans also use the term "beatific vision," and as far as I can tell, many of them are aware that it means theosis. Maybe others do, too.)

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