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Proof of Paranormal Activity?

ouija board paranormal proof

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#16    ouija ouija

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:15 PM

View PostGodIsWearingBlack, on 20 February 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

The problem is, so many people have gone before you, and most (if not all) of them have turned out to be dishonest in their claims.  As a result of that a lot of people who used to believe in such things are now disheartened, and fed up of the BS that exists in the world of the paranormal.  And there are others who just get their kicks by fooling the gullible, making outrageous claims that they can't possibly back up, and even making money out of it.  

You know what beats a cry of BS, even from the masses?  Evidence.  If you were to prove them wrong, their claims would mean nothing.  They could say whatever they wanted, but the evidence would be much louder than all of their voices combined.  

As far as being neutral goes, you say they don't have proof one way or the other.  That's not strictly true.  As much as you have your own personal experiences to lead you to a conclusion, they have theirs, some of which relies on scientific methods, some of it experiences of their own attempts to do something paranormal.

It doesn't matter how many people have gone before ..... be polite or don't post! That applies through this entire site, doesn't it?

How do know that 'most, if not all' have been fraudulent when it isn't something that can be proven online?

Attempting to experience something paranormal and failing does not disprove the existence of the paranormal!

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#17    ouija ouija

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:21 PM

View PostNucular, on 21 February 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

- but in the last few hundred years there have been some very impressive methodological approaches to working empirically with difficult phenomena.  

Could you tell me more about this, please?

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#18    GodIsWearingBlack

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:33 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 21 February 2014 - 06:44 PM, said:

(Mainly @ Nucular): you asked me if there was a paranormal experience that I had had that I would like to have proved, but felt that it was not possible to do this. I don't know how good an example this is, but here goes.

There was a time when I spent every Saturday afternoon watching steeplechasing and hurdling on the TV(not keen on flat racing!). Watching the horses being led around the saddling enclosure before the race, I found that I could pick out those that would not finish the race for one reason or another, and on one sad occasion predicted correctly that a particular horse would die during the race. Now I've worked with racehorses(in a very small yard), so you could say that I have an eye for a horse that isn't well, but of course there are all sorts of reasons why a horse doesn't finish a race, not just because it isn't up to it's best. It may be 'run out' just before a fence by a loose horse, the jockey may fall off or the horse itself may fall etc etc. I was also exceptionally good at picking winners and those that it was worth betting on for a place. I could do this from watching the horses in the saddling enclosure or from reading a list of runners and riders(the winner would appear 'highlighted' in some way .... would stand out from the others). HOWEVER ...... when I took the plunge and signed up with a bookmakers to place bets over the phone, I lost the knack! I would describe it as having my state of mind disrupted. For it to work I had to be on my own, quite relaxed, and have no distractions or interruptions .... my mind had to be focussed solely on the race. The pressure to identify the winner, decide how much money I would put on it and then phone and speak to someone at the bookmakers all conspired to scupper things. Presumably a similar thing is happening when people use the ouija board and why it can't be reproduced in 'laboratory conditions'.

Can anyone explain to me how I was getting the information about the horses?

Here's another example: in the 1990s, the night before the Grand National was to be run, I had a dream in which I opened a newspaper to look at the list of runners and riders for the National. One horse's name was printed in huge letters, at an angle, across all the others. This was obviously the winner .... it couldn't be clearer! So when I woke up, I thought 'My goodness! I'd be a fool not to put some money on it when the dream was so clear!'. But as the day wore on(the race started at 4pm), I became more and more reluctant to take the bus the couple of stops into town and go to the bookmakers. I kept trying to talk myself into placing a bet but it was almost as though a physical barrier was preventing me from doing it. In the end I didn't put the bet on ...... and 'my' horse did 'win' ........... BUT, the race was invalid because it had two false starts. On the second one, a handful of horses continued on and completed the course, their jockeys not realising there had been another false start ....... 'my' horse being first past the post. The 'winning' jockey was inconsolable when he discovered he hadn't really won. No bets were honoured, obviously, so I would have wasted my money(and busfare!), if I had placed a bet.

I don't know why some people equate 'can't be proven at this moment in time' with 'isn't real/true'. Science and our own understanding have always moved slowly, but move they do. At some point in the future I'm sure we will understand what is currently termed 'paranormal'. Rupert Sheldrake has been making inroads into the understanding of 'group soul/mind' for some time and I think this is what I make connection with every now and again: 'information in the ether'.

As for people at this site claiming they can produce paranormal phenomena 'at will'(as Nucular mentioned), I'm guessing that they mean 'doing it at will when the conditions are conducive'.

I would suggest both of these examples are more down to remembering the times you got it right, and forgetting the times you got it wrong, because a positive hit means something, whereas a miss is something to be brushed under the carpet.  

Hasn't everyone had a dream of picking the right numbers for the lottery?  Or a winning horse/football game, etc?  Some win, some lose.  If yours don't win, you then put it down to some other action.  The act of putting the bet on, not being in the right frame of mind, not being relaxed enough.  You're making excuses for the misses, and accepting the hits with a pat on the back.  That's why these gifts don't test well.  Science is a pretty cold-hearted mistress.  It takes the facts, and answers yes or no.  There's no No (but the temperature was wrong, and I had my left foot crossed over the right, instead of the other way around).  

Maybe the examples you gave are a bit unfair for your case, as they can easily be put down to luck.  Using the percentages alone, anyone could have similar results.  I've had days of picking random football matches, and them all winning, even though I didn't have enough time to think about them (too close to kick-off).  I've also done the same thing and lost.  

I've even gone so far to bet on exact scores, with very high odds, and won some, lost a lot.  Sometimes I've had a "feeling", to just do a certain type of bet for a certain match, missed the closing time, and the thing would have won.  And, I've had a few in similar circumstances where I've made the bet in time or missed it, and lost or won.  Sometimes I'm lucky, sometimes I'm not.  

If you claim something, and can't back it up, why can you not see that it's a natural reaction for people to call your gift into question?  For all I know you could be completely, 100% honest, and able to predict things to an astounding level, if you're in the right place with the right mindset, but I'd have to be somewhat gullible and unintelligent to just accept your word for it, because I want to believe in it.  Which I do.  I really do.  I'd love to be living in a world where such things were possible.  Ghosts, aliens, demons, the whole thing.  I grew up on horror and sci-fi.  I believed in most of the paranormal at one point or another.  Some aspects more than others.

Edited by GodIsWearingBlack, 21 February 2014 - 07:43 PM.


#19    GodIsWearingBlack

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:39 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 21 February 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

It doesn't matter how many people have gone before ..... be polite or don't post! That applies through this entire site, doesn't it?

How do know that 'most, if not all' have been fraudulent when it isn't something that can be proven online?

Attempting to experience something paranormal and failing does not disprove the existence of the paranormal!

How exactly was I not polite?  

I know that most (if not all) were fraudulent because in a lot of cases the people were found out.  Sooner or later they either told the truth, or got busted from their posts on other forums, etc.  In some instances they were found out to be trying to get money for their services, and hiding any negative reviews.  And I'm not just talking about online experiences either, look at the world of celebrity frauds debunked.


#20    Sakari

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:41 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 19 February 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:



Unless you have had direct, personal experience of the paranormal then I can understand that it is difficult to accept the word of others who have had such experiences. The fact is, some people are very sensitive to the paranormal, others are not. There is a range of sensitivity just as there is a range of tolerance to pain or a range of ability in understanding levels of maths or the sciences. Sensitivity to the paranormal is not commonplace ....... although more people than you would think have paranormal experiences but choose not to talk about them.



I have had several " experiences ", do I chalk them up to " Paranormal " and " spirits ".....No, I say " I do not know what that was ".

The fact is, some people jump to " paranormal " when something happens they can not explain, others do not just jump to conclusions from stories and legends. They would rather look for facts, and not assume things.

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#21    Sakari

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 07:52 PM

View PostGodIsWearingBlack, on 21 February 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

How exactly was I not polite?  

You have been polite, and welcome to UM. Nice to see fresh, intelligent replies here.

People get defensive when questioned on their belief, even when they state it as fact on a public, open discussion forum. You will see that a bit here, more then less actually.

To me, ( and psychology ) the first sign of lying is getting defensive.( overly ) I am not saying anyone is lying, but I agree with that fact. I have also noticed that a lot of posts ( not saying this one, just in general ) seem to be for attention, especially more so when the OP gets defensive to any questioning, or debating of claims.

Keep doing what you are doing, great posts, and good conversation !

Edited by Sakari, 21 February 2014 - 07:54 PM.

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#22    ouija ouija

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:32 PM

View PostGodIsWearingBlack, on 21 February 2014 - 07:39 PM, said:

How exactly was I not polite?  

I know that most (if not all) were fraudulent because in a lot of cases the people were found out.  Sooner or later they either told the truth, or got busted from their posts on other forums, etc.  In some instances they were found out to be trying to get money for their services, and hiding any negative reviews.  And I'm not just talking about online experiences either, look at the world of celebrity frauds debunked.
I wasn't calling you impolite, I was speaking generally! You used the phrase 'so many people have gone before you' and I was making the point that it didn't matter how many people post on this site making similar claims, we should all be polite to each other.

View PostSakari, on 21 February 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

You have been polite, and welcome to UM. Nice to see fresh, intelligent replies here.

People get defensive when questioned on their belief, even when they state it as fact on a public, open discussion forum. You will see that a bit here, more then less actually.

To me, ( and psychology ) the first sign of lying is getting defensive.( overly ) I am not saying anyone is lying, but I agree with that fact. I have also noticed that a lot of posts ( not saying this one, just in general ) seem to be for attention, especially more so when the OP gets defensive to any questioning, or debating of claims.

Keep doing what you are doing, great posts, and good conversation !

See my reply above ....... you jumped too quickly to a conclusion.

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#23    ouija ouija

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:53 PM

View PostGodIsWearingBlack, on 21 February 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

I would suggest both of these examples are more down to remembering the times you got it right, and forgetting the times you got it wrong, because a positive hit means something, whereas a miss is something to be brushed under the carpet.  
I only did it for part of one season and I can only say(not expecting anyone to believe me here!), that my predictions week in, week out, were waaay beyond any averaging out of 'remembering when I got it right, forgetting when I got it wrong'.
Hasn't everyone had a dream of picking the right numbers for the lottery?  Or a winning horse/football game, etc?  Some win, some lose.  If yours don't win, you then put it down to some other action.  The act of putting the bet on, not being in the right frame of mind, not being relaxed enough.  You're making excuses for the misses, and accepting the hits with a pat on the back.  That's why these gifts don't test well.  Science is a pretty cold-hearted mistress.  It takes the facts, and answers yes or no.  There's no No (but the temperature was wrong, and I had my left foot crossed over the right, instead of the other way around).
Except that that was the only time it's ever happened to me(I'm 61)! If I had ever had a similar dream with lottery numbers etc I would definitely have acted on it.
The difference in success after joining the bookmakers to my success before joining was very great .

Maybe the examples you gave are a bit unfair for your case, as they can easily be put down to luck.  Using the percentages alone, anyone could have similar results.  I've had days of picking random football matches, and them all winning, even though I didn't have enough time to think about them (too close to kick-off).  I've also done the same thing and lost.  
Not quite sure how 'luck' comes into my example. Also disagree with you that percentages had an effect.


I've even gone so far to bet on exact scores, with very high odds, and won some, lost a lot.  Sometimes I've had a "feeling", to just do a certain type of bet for a certain match, missed the closing time, and the thing would have won.  And, I've had a few in similar circumstances where I've made the bet in time or missed it, and lost or won.  Sometimes I'm lucky, sometimes I'm not.  

If you claim something, and can't back it up, why can you not see that it's a natural reaction for people to call your gift into question?  For all I know you could be completely, 100% honest, and able to predict things to an astounding level, if you're in the right place with the right mindset, but I'd have to be somewhat gullible and unintelligent to just accept your word for it, because I want to believe in it.  Which I do.  I really do.  I'd love to be living in a world where such things were possible.  Ghosts, aliens, demons, the whole thing.  I grew up on horror and sci-fi.  I believed in most of the paranormal at one point or another.  Some aspects more than others.

I haven't said that I don't think people should call the experiences of others into question. Twice now I have said that I think people should simply be polite or say nothing rather than being rude. That is my main point in this thread. The other being that it is ridiculous to discount one person's experience for no other reason than you yourself haven't had that experience. And just to be clear: that is not directed at you personally .... it is a general comment.

My comments in green above.

Edited by ouija ouija, 21 February 2014 - 08:54 PM.

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#24    ouija ouija

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:24 PM

View PostSakari, on 21 February 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

I have had several " experiences ", do I chalk them up to " Paranormal " and " spirits ".....No, I say " I do not know what that was ".

The fact is, some people jump to " paranormal " when something happens they can not explain, others do not just jump to conclusions from stories and legends. They would rather look for facts, and not assume things.

I assume that people here at UM use the word 'paranormal'(dictionary definition: beyond the scope of normal objective investigation or explanation), because the personal experience they are describing is outside of their personal understanding of 'objective investigation or explanation'. Now, this personal understanding may well change over time and they may discover that what they at first thought of as paranormal is in fact not. All I'm saying is: while we're all on different paths, at different stages, let's be nice to each other!

New people are joining UM all the time and yes, a lot of them are interested in subjects that those who have been here a long time feel have been done to death and/or proved/disproved. But each new 'batch' of UMers has to work things through afresh, for themselves. What I can't understand are the 'old hands' who get some sort of feeling of superiority out of swooping in, leaving a derisory comment and swooping out again. They don't make constructive comments and they don't direct the newbies to old threads with relevent information in them. They just scoff, using the same tired old phrases.

Just because someone refers to something as 'paranormal' does not mean that they are not looking for rational explanations of it at the same time.

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#25    Sakari

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:43 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 21 February 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

I wasn't calling you impolite, I was speaking generally! You used the phrase 'so many people have gone before you' and I was making the point that it didn't matter how many people post on this site making similar claims, we should all be polite to each other.



See my reply above ....... you jumped too quickly to a conclusion.

My apology, you are correct, I did not see that reply. I should say, I started the reply before yours was there, and did not finish it and hit " reply " until later. Wife came home with groceries. Sorry about that.

Edited by Sakari, 21 February 2014 - 09:45 PM.

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#26    Sakari

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:47 PM

View Postouija ouija, on 21 February 2014 - 09:24 PM, said:

I assume that people here at UM use the word 'paranormal'(dictionary definition: beyond the scope of normal objective investigation or explanation), because the personal experience they are describing is outside of their personal understanding of 'objective investigation or explanation'. Now, this personal understanding may well change over time and they may discover that what they at first thought of as paranormal is in fact not. All I'm saying is: while we're all on different paths, at different stages, let's be nice to each other!

New people are joining UM all the time and yes, a lot of them are interested in subjects that those who have been here a long time feel have been done to death and/or proved/disproved. But each new 'batch' of UMers has to work things through afresh, for themselves. What I can't understand are the 'old hands' who get some sort of feeling of superiority out of swooping in, leaving a derisory comment and swooping out again. They don't make constructive comments and they don't direct the newbies to old threads with relevent information in them. They just scoff, using the same tired old phrases.

Just because someone refers to something as 'paranormal' does not mean that they are not looking for rational explanations of it at the same time.

I agree with this, and I do not mean every person here. And yes, some people do " swoop " in and do that. We have both sides having those kind of people.

I also agree that people should be able to discuss things civilly, if not, why even bother?

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#27    GodIsWearingBlack

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 10:42 PM

I think the forum rules pretty much cover the civility issue.  

As to you not thinking your examples line up with luck and/or percentages, Ouija Ouija, that's the point I made earlier.  You can only make judgements on the world around you based on your own experiences and reasoning.  I can only do the same thing, and my experiences and reasoning leads me to different conclusions to yours.  We disagree.  Which is fine.  Maybe one day the evidence will sway more toward your beliefs, I just can't see it.  If anything, over the years, it seems to be looking less and less likely.  Sadly.


#28    Sakari

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 11:32 PM

View PostGodIsWearingBlack, on 21 February 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

  Maybe one day the evidence will sway more toward your belief.

That would mean any evidence correct?

There is so much evidence, and facts to explain so many things some call " paranormal ". I do not think there will be anything that supports the claims we see, just a lot of forums and TV shows in the future. That is, if people keep on believing.

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#29    Awake2Chaos

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 11:53 PM

View PostGodIsWearingBlack, on 21 February 2014 - 10:42 PM, said:

I think the forum rules pretty much cover the civility issue.  

As to you not thinking your examples line up with luck and/or percentages, Ouija Ouija, that's the point I made earlier.  You can only make judgements on the world around you based on your own experiences and reasoning.  I can only do the same thing, and my experiences and reasoning leads me to different conclusions to yours.  We disagree.  Which is fine.  Maybe one day the evidence will sway more toward your beliefs, I just can't see it. If anything, over the years, it seems to be looking less and less likely.  Sadly.

This is off topic, but I'd just like to point something out.

Mindset has a lot to do with contact.  If you close your mind off (even if you think you are 'open minded') a lot of entities will not take the time or energy to reach out to you, because they know you will dismiss them as something else.  The opposite can be said of those that are sensitive; when a medium walks into a haunted location, a lot of times they will be flooded, because the entities within the location will sense their awareness and take advantage of it.

It's a catch 22 I see with a lot of skeptics; they've never had an experience, so they don't believe, but because they are closed off, those on the other side won't waste their time on them.  Therefore, they'll never have an experience.  (The only exception to that is when an entity is malevolent, and they just don't care and want to cause harm to someone.)

Just my 2 cents.

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#30    Sakari

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 11:58 PM

View PostAwake2Chaos, on 21 February 2014 - 11:53 PM, said:

Mindset has a lot to do with contact.  If you close your mind off (even if you think you are 'open minded') a lot of entities will not take the time or energy to reach out to you, because they know you will dismiss them as something else.

I can not even count how many times I have read, seen, or heard " I never believed any of this until it happened to me "......
<p>Sorry, unless people claiming this stuff to happen to them for their first time, and stating how they " did not believe in this stuff until it happened to me " are lying, I wouold say this sounds like another " reason " why some people can not get it to happen, or why some can not%2

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