Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Pre-Tribs & Dispensationalists


  • Please log in to reply
26 replies to this topic

#1    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 21 February 2014 - 02:44 PM

What have you to say to these two contradicting passages:

When is the First Resurrection? At The Pre-Tribulation Rapture? Or Post-Tribulation?

A) This passage argues Pre-Trib

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

B ) This passage argues Post-Trib

Revelation 20:4-5

I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn't worship the beast nor his image, and didn't receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived, and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead didn't live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Edited by GoSC, 21 February 2014 - 02:48 PM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#2    Copen

Copen

    Extraterrestrial Entity

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 496 posts
  • Joined:15 May 2011

Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:05 PM

How about 1Cor.15:52
"At the last trump". There are at least seven trumps in Rev. Which would make resurrection after tribulation.
God bless our search for the truth in scripture.


#3    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 21 February 2014 - 03:36 PM

View PostCopen, on 21 February 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:

How about 1Cor.15:52
"At the last trump". There are at least seven trumps in Rev. Which would make resurrection after tribulation.
God bless our search for the truth in scripture.

But what about those that believe in the Rapture... the dead in Christ will rise first!

(Personally I don't believe in a secret Rapture)

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#4    and then

and then

    Abyssus Abyssum Invocat

  • Member
  • 13,971 posts
  • Joined:15 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Land's End

  • Because what came before never seems enough...

Posted 21 February 2014 - 04:18 PM

My (limited) understanding is that the first of 2 resurrections will be of the body of Christ i.e. the church era believers.  They will rise when he returns to claim his bride.  Those who believed from the pre and post church (post rapture martyrs) will be resurrected when he returns physically and claims his Kingship.
Daniel 12:13  But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days
This was explained to me as evidence that the early believers would be resurrected in some unknown order at Christ's physical return.  Again, not a scholar, but I certainly believe in a pre tribulation harpazo. If I am incorrect then I will be ready to suffer what must be suffered, but I believe his bride will not be subjected to HIS wrath. That is not to say we might not suffer in the run up to the great tribulation.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#5    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 21 February 2014 - 06:42 PM

View Postand then, on 21 February 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

My (limited) understanding is that the first of 2 resurrections will be of the body of Christ i.e. the church era believers.  They will rise when he returns to claim his bride.  Those who believed from the pre and post church (post rapture martyrs) will be resurrected when he returns physically and claims his Kingship.
Daniel 12:13  But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days
This was explained to me as evidence that the early believers would be resurrected in some unknown order at Christ's physical return.  Again, not a scholar, but I certainly believe in a pre tribulation harpazo. If I am incorrect then I will be ready to suffer what must be suffered, but I believe his bride will not be subjected to HIS wrath. That is not to say we might not suffer in the run up to the great tribulation.

But according to pre-Tribs Jesus resurrects the church at the Rapture (a la the First Resurrection)? 1 Thess. 4:16-17

And according to Rev. 20:4-5, the First Resurrection occurs after the Tribulation?

Are there two "First" Resurrections?

Also according to some Dispys and Pre-Tribs, in 2 Thess. 2:1-7, the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit  who will be removed before the man of sin is revealed in verse 7 BUT in verses 1 & 3 of this passage, the man of sin will be revealed BEFORE our gathering together with Lord? So in essence this verse according to this theology:

1. The Holy Spirit abandons the world

2. The man of sin is revealed

3. We are gathered together with the Lord


See the errors?

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#6    Paranoid Android

Paranoid Android

    ????????

  • 25,962 posts
  • Joined:17 Apr 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sydney

  • Paranoid Android... One Mippippi, two Mippippi, three Mippipi....

Posted 21 February 2014 - 06:47 PM

I'm wondering how many pre-trib Christians are actually regularly active in these forums. I've seen some turn up from time to time, perhaps some return now and then, but as a whole, how many people this thread actually refers to, I'm honestly not sure :yes:

Not that the question isn't valid. Eschatology has interested people for close to 2 thousand years.  But I'm not sure how many advocates of this singular view you'll find arguing the point on a board like this. Just saying :)

Edited by Paranoid Android, 21 February 2014 - 06:49 PM.

Posted Image

My blog is now taking a new direction.  Dedicated to my father who was a great inspiration in my life, I wish to honour his memory (RIP, dad) by sharing with the world what he had always kept to himself.  More details, http://www.unexplain...showentry=27811

#7    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 21 February 2014 - 06:53 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 21 February 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

I'm wondering how many pre-trib Christians are actually regularly active in these forums. I've seen some turn up from time to time, perhaps some return now and then, but as a whole, how many people this thread actually refers to, I'm honestly not sure :yes:

Not that the question isn't valid. Eschatology has interested people for close to 2 thousand years.  But I'm not sure how many advocates of this singular view you'll find arguing the point on a board like this. Just saying :)

:)

Well I know there are plenty of  Christians about and those interested in theological discussions. I am definitely eager to read responses from Pre-Tribs, I am a partial-Preterist leaning towards amillennialism.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#8    Sundew

Sundew

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,781 posts
  • Joined:12 Dec 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:An island by the sea.

  • Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectos Nunc

Posted 21 February 2014 - 08:00 PM

The rapture is thought by many to precede the second coming of Christ with the seven year Tribulation period in between. One reason is that in Scripture, God has removed people from harm before an outpouring of his wrath upon the Earth. Paul says in I Thessalonians 5:9, "For God did not appoint us (i.e. believers) to wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." Enoch was apparently raptured prior to the Biblical flood. Noah and his relatives were placed inside an ark before the same event. Lot and his family were told to leave the plain before the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Note that these were widespread or even global events and this is not saying that every time something bad is about to happen God steps in and removes people from harm (consider Job), that is not a Biblical view, God's wrath is quite different from the day to day troubles, even quite bad ones, that we experience on the Earth.


#9    Marcus Aurelius

Marcus Aurelius

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,747 posts
  • Joined:07 Dec 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:columbus ohio

Posted 21 February 2014 - 11:15 PM

I personally think this is a non-issue. It just doesn't seem sensible or practical to me to debate these matters. I am more interested in the 'right-now' as opposed to the 'not-yet.'

I don't know how or when these things are going to happen and frankly I don't care. I trust God.

What I do see is a broken and suffering world that needs the healing power of Christ....in the present moment; not in some eschatological end. This is my concern.

Practice the Kingdom in the NOW and we will be ready when the Kingdom is fully realized; however or whenever it happens.

Posted Image

The Urban Contemplative

http://www.unexplain...log&blogid=2565

#10    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:45 AM

View PostSundew, on 21 February 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

The rapture is thought by many to precede the second coming of Christ with the seven year Tribulation period in between. One reason is that in Scripture, God has removed people from harm before an outpouring of his wrath upon the Earth. Paul says in I Thessalonians 5:9, "For God did not appoint us (i.e. believers) to wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." Enoch was apparently raptured prior to the Biblical flood. Noah and his relatives were placed inside an ark before the same event. Lot and his family were told to leave the plain before the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Note that these were widespread or even global events and this is not saying that every time something bad is about to happen God steps in and removes people from harm (consider Job), that is not a Biblical view, God's wrath is quite different from the day to day troubles, even quite bad ones, that we experience on the Earth.

But what Pre-Tribs overlook is verses 2-8 of that passage.

Romans 11:22, "but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."


"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#11    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:57 AM

View PostMarcus Aurelius, on 21 February 2014 - 11:15 PM, said:

I personally think this is a non-issue. It just doesn't seem sensible or practical to me to debate these matters. I am more interested in the 'right-now' as opposed to the 'not-yet.'

I don't know how or when these things are going to happen and frankly I don't care. I trust God.

What I do see is a broken and suffering world that needs the healing power of Christ....in the present moment; not in some eschatological end. This is my concern.

Practice the Kingdom in the NOW and we will be ready when the Kingdom is fully realized; however or whenever it happens.

To avoid damnable heresies. To say Christ is going to reign on earth in the future when in fact he reigning right now in heaven is a pretty illogical theology. Because when Christ returns the resurrection occurs and His final enemy ... death is defeated ...and then He hands up the throne to His father. But the fact remains Christ is reigning right in Heaven upon the throne of David. His kingdom is not of this world. Remember the Israelites asked for a king and would not have God rule over them. So you have the throne of David which was originally God's throne and Christ sits on that same throne. God has taken the throne of David that was rightly His to begin with, and sat His Son upon in Heaven.

But Pre-Tribs have Christ without a throne now and that there will a future 1,000 year kingdom with Christ simultaneously reigning over mortal sinners and immortal rapture resurrected saints in a Semi-Golden Age.

That same is a dangerous doctrine, demonic even, to deceive the masses.

Edited by GoSC, 22 February 2014 - 01:01 AM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#12    Marcus Aurelius

Marcus Aurelius

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,747 posts
  • Joined:07 Dec 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:columbus ohio

Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:44 AM

GoSC; I do agree with you there. I too feel that the whole pre-trib rapture is bad theology and is a dangerous doctrine. It sells a lot of books.

I think it gets people because on a subconscious level we see the suffering in the world and in our own lives that it becomes appealing. We hope that we will somehow be rescued and whisked away from all our troubles.

I would want no part of such a doctrine or scenario. I want to help people, not be taken away from them...

Posted Image

The Urban Contemplative

http://www.unexplain...log&blogid=2565

#13    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 22 February 2014 - 07:08 AM

View PostMarcus Aurelius, on 22 February 2014 - 04:44 AM, said:

GoSC; I do agree with you there. I too feel that the whole pre-trib rapture is bad theology and is a dangerous doctrine. It sells a lot of books.

I think it gets people because on a subconscious level we see the suffering in the world and in our own lives that it becomes appealing. We hope that we will somehow be rescued and whisked away from all our troubles.

I would want no part of such a doctrine or scenario. I want to help people, not be taken away from them...

Indeed it is.

It pulls a believers attention away from the center of our faith which is Christ Jesus and winning souls with gospel into what one brother in Christ called "Headline News Exegesis".

It has believers watching Israel instead watching for Christ. Where war is more encouraging than peace. Watching for a heap of ruins, eyes to melt, blood running as high as horse's bridle, and 2/3 of the human race perishing rather than the glorious return of our saviour. Openly accepting of the reinstitution of animal sacrifice trampling the cross of Christ underfoot.

Little do they comprehend that the tent of David is their neighborhood church. Our meeting places of worship and fellowship in the body of Christ, we are the living stones of the temple of the living God. The time has arrived that we no longer worship God on that mountain or in Jerusalem but in the spirit where ever two or three are gathered in His name. Christ entered the tabernacle not made with human hands and the veil was His flesh by which we too can enter that same tabernacle.

To return to the blood of animals and tabernacle made with human hands.....

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#14    Copen

Copen

    Extraterrestrial Entity

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 496 posts
  • Joined:15 May 2011

Posted 26 February 2014 - 04:45 PM

It would seem to me that He is our great high priest mediating for His elect on earth. But He has not come as king and conqueror on earth,yet. As long as the devil is here Christ is not reigning in the kingship authority,yet.

Many think God would not let Christians go thru tribulation because He would not want us to suffer. But the trail is crimson red from the shed blood of Christians at the beginning of the NT era.

Plus, look at the suffering Jews have gone thru. You think that was because they rejected god?  Bible says they were blinded so they couldn't see and understand in order to graft the Gentiles in.

If Christians ever come to realize how pagan they have become while still worshipping Him; they would see why they are going to go thru tribulation.


#15    Bluefinger

Bluefinger

    I am a Christian, and I understand many don't like that. .

  • Member
  • 4,836 posts
  • Joined:02 Sep 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Minot, ND

  • "You'll know them by their fruits."

Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:21 AM

GOSC and Marcus Aurelius,

I just want you guys to know that I am so encouraged by what you both have been writing concerning this topic and concerning helping the world heal rather than being excited that it's dying.


It is not enough to have a good mind.  The main thing is to use it well.     - Descartes




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users