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Does God Love Himself Much More Than Us?

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#16    Hideout

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 07:04 AM

View Post_Only, on 05 March 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:

So has TV, but it was created.
Yes but we have evidence of TVs creation. Point me to compelling evidence for the "creation" of man.

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#17    _Only

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 07:07 AM

View PostHideout, on 05 March 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

Yes but we have evidence of TVs creation. Point me to compelling evidence for the "creation" of man.

I don't think I need to convince anyone of anything, as I myself don't know. But I can still point out that evolution of a thing doesn't necessarily mean it is free from possibly being originally, intentionally fabricated.

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#18    Hideout

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 07:09 AM

View Post_Only, on 05 March 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

I don't think I need to convince anyone of anything, as I myself don't know. But I can still point out that evolution of a thing doesn't necessarily mean it is free from possibly being originally, intentionally fabricated.
Fair enough. I thought you were positing creation as fact.

To those who do not know mathematics it is difficult to get across a real feeling as to the beauty, the deepest beauty, of nature ... If you want to learn about nature, to appreciate nature, it is necessary to understand the language that she speaks in.
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#19    Almagest

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 08:32 AM

View Post_Only, on 05 March 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

I don't think I need to convince anyone of anything, as I myself don't know. But I can still point out that evolution of a thing doesn't necessarily mean it is free from possibly being originally, intentionally fabricated.

What we can discern from the fact of evolution is that it's an incredibly cruel way to make a human. Cruelty does not fit into any definition of the word love that I'm aware of. In fact I'd say that it's the antithesis.

Heaven and hell suppose two distinct species of men, the good and the bad. But the greatest part of mankind float betwixt vice and virtue. - David Hume

#20    and then

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 10:14 AM

View PostAlmagest, on 05 March 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

What we can discern from the fact of evolution is that it's an incredibly cruel way to make a human. Cruelty does not fit into any definition of the word love that I'm aware of. In fact I'd say that it's the antithesis.
So if one believes in a Creator one must also believe that this entity is hateful based on his means of bring us to life?  Based on what? The struggles our ancestors went through to reach the physical form they take today?  Since you cannot really conceive of what it must take to actually create such an unbelievably complex thing as a human body, how can you say that?  I don't pretend to have answers about evolution but I firmly believe that beyond the reality we can measure of natural selection, NO proof exists that something so complex simply "fell together" over millennia and became more complex rather than less. I think entropy speaks against that doesn't it? I'm no biologist OR physicist but it doesn't take more than a basic course in biology or physiology to understand how delicate and complex the inter related systems are to know that they didn't just occur randomly.  Those who worship a god of science should simply be truthful about it rather than looking down the nose at those who refuse to.  In the end it's simply another individual choice we make.  As they tell us in this modern world - there is no right or wrong - correct?

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#21    Rlyeh

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 10:57 AM

View PostPerceptivum, on 04 March 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

The "god" you refer to might love himself more than anything, but my God (i.e., the one true God, I Am) loves me/us infinitely more than Himself.  I know this because: (1) the Bible tells me so and if that's not good enough, (2) He sent His son to die on the cross so we may have everlasting life with Him in heaven.  So, if you have a god that loves himself more than you, you're with the wrong "god".  Visit a church and talk it over with a Pastor, he'll be able to help you out.
1. Where does the Bible say this?
2. Nothing to do with loving himself or not.

Your "god" is just as wrong.


#22    Almagest

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 11:08 AM

View Postand then, on 05 March 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

So if one believes in a Creator one must also believe that this entity is hateful based on his means of bring us to life?  Based on what?

That's not quite what I said. Infinite Hatred is based on the notion of God having infinite characteristics. And if God is truly infinite then why wouldn't he have all possible characteristics, not just the ones that we like? If the Old Testament is anything to go on then I think God does have a capacity for hate and if God is infinite so is his hatred.


Quote

The struggles our ancestors went through to reach the physical form they take today?  Since you cannot really conceive of what it must take to actually create such an unbelievably complex thing as a human body, how can you say that?  I don't pretend to have answers about evolution but I firmly believe that beyond the reality we can measure of natural selection, NO proof exists that something so complex simply "fell together" over millennia and became more complex rather than less. I think entropy speaks against that doesn't it? I'm no biologist OR physicist but it doesn't take more than a basic course in biology or physiology to understand how delicate and complex the inter related systems are to know that they didn't just occur randomly.

That's an argument from ignorance. You don't know what I can and cannot conceive, and vice versa. I can quite easily conceive of a less advanced life form evolving into a more advanced one via natural selection. Yes there are unsolved problems with the origin of life, but the picture we have managed to put together is quite amazing. As for Thermodynamics, life doesn't violate the conservation of energy at all. In fact it seems to support the idea that when conditions are right, self replicating proteins will inevitably emerge as a result of the laws of physics, and from there natural selection comes into play.

https://www.simonsfo...theory-of-life/

So please don't confuse your own lack of knowledge on the subject as the boundary of possibility. I certainly don't.


Quote

Those who worship a god of science should simply be truthful about it rather than looking down the nose at those who refuse to.  In the end it's simply another individual choice we make.  As they tell us in this modern world - there is no right or wrong - correct?

I have no need for worship. I have reverence for the power of natural laws and all the wonderful things it produces. The same laws that produce humanity also produced the Grand Canyon, millions of beautiful spiral galaxies and flowers. And if I have anything like religion in my life it is a love of those things that redeem humanity, music and literature.

And no, there is right and wrong. It's merely a matter of non-believers using different criteria for what constitutes right and wrong. I tend to base right and wrong on what alleviates human suffering and promotes prosperity. You base it on different criteria. Either way it has always been subjective.

Heaven and hell suppose two distinct species of men, the good and the bad. But the greatest part of mankind float betwixt vice and virtue. - David Hume

#23    JGirl

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 11:16 AM

silly question. don't care.


#24    and then

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 11:19 AM

View PostAlmagest, on 05 March 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

That's not quite what I said. Infinite Hatred is based on the notion of God having infinite characteristics. And if God is truly infinite then why wouldn't he have all possible characteristics, not just the ones that we like? If the Old Testament is anything to go on then I think God does have a capacity for hate and if God is infinite so is his hatred.




That's an argument from ignorance. You don't know what I can and cannot conceive, and vice versa. I can quite easily conceive of a less advanced life form evolving into a more advanced one via natural selection. Yes there are unsolved problems with the origin of life, but the picture we have managed to put together is quite amazing. As for Thermodynamics, life doesn't violate the conservation of energy at all. In fact it seems to support the idea that when conditions are right, self replicating proteins will inevitably emerge as a result of the laws of physics, and from there natural selection comes into play.

https://www.simonsfo...theory-of-life/

So please don't confuse your own lack of knowledge on the subject as the boundary of possibility. I certainly don't.




I have no need for worship. I have reverence for the power of natural laws and all the wonderful things it produces. The same laws that produce humanity also produced the Grand Canyon, millions of beautiful spiral galaxies and flowers. And if I have anything like religion in my life it is a love of those things that redeem humanity, music and literature.

And no, there is right and wrong. It's merely a matter of non-believers using different criteria for what constitutes right and wrong. I tend to base right and wrong on what alleviates human suffering and promotes prosperity. You base it on different criteria. Either way it has always been subjective.
Call it what you will but if you base your faith on the very creation of life on only observable or quantifiable principles then you revere science over all else.  Your choice. You are correct - I AM ignorant of much.  But just because you have a better grasp of how these systems work does NOT mean you understand what it takes to create them initially.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#25    and then

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 11:20 AM

View PostJGirl, on 05 March 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

silly question. don't care.
I can see why many would feel so.  But to his credit I think the OP assumed those who would respond actually did believe in the premise of a God to begin with.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#26    JGirl

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 11:23 AM

View Postand then, on 05 March 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

I can see why many would feel so.  But to his credit I think the OP assumed those who would respond actually did believe in the premise of a God to begin with.
well that's assumptions for ya.
just as you assumed that i don't believe in god.

Edited by JGirl, 05 March 2014 - 11:24 AM.


#27    Almagest

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 11:55 AM

View Postand then, on 05 March 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

Call it what you will but if you base your faith on the very creation of life on only observable or quantifiable principles then you revere science over all else.  Your choice. You are correct - I AM ignorant of much.  But just because you have a better grasp of how these systems work does NOT mean you understand what it takes to create them initially.

I have no faith. I have a sense of empathy and a reasoning brain. Science is a method for understanding the Universe, and it doesn't require faith. You don't have to take Maxwell's equations on faith because you're having photons fired at your eyeballs right now because of them.

Realising that you are ignorant is a good thing. I come face to face with my own ignorance on a daily basis. Without that acknowledgement you can't learn. What you can do is assess everything critically, and my assessment is that a divine creator who loves us does not fit in to what we know about the Universe. I can't rule it out but without convincing evidence I can't accept it.

I have to go with what we have, that we're the product of an ancient line of creatures that evolved into a myriad of forms in the struggle of survival. Our ancestors began to walk upright and developed opposable thumbs and brains and here we are. The question for me is what do we do with the cards we are dealt? I say we should act out of love to one another as often as possible, because it is one of the best human traits. There may very well be a loving God, and if evidence of one emerges I will begin to reconsider my position.

Heaven and hell suppose two distinct species of men, the good and the bad. But the greatest part of mankind float betwixt vice and virtue. - David Hume

#28    lightly

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 12:05 PM

i don't think so..  to me , that's like asking if the sky loves one space more than another..  or one cloud more than another.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#29    The_Spirit_of_Truth

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 12:30 PM

View PostHideout, on 04 March 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

I think it's obvious that the majority of most claimed gods love themselves more than us. Though they seem to have an almost contradictory fragile ego given their apparent narcissism, they get very upset if you don't love them as much as they love themselves, and threaten violence unless you do.
:clap:
But perhaps it was rather people and not directly God(s) who forced other people to love God(s) so much oppositely they will be punished.


#30    The_Spirit_of_Truth

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 12:35 PM

View PostPerceptivum, on 04 March 2014 - 09:33 PM, said:

The "god" you refer to might love himself more than anything, but my God (i.e., the one true God, I Am) loves me/us infinitely more than Himself.  I know this because: (1) the Bible tells me so and if that's not good enough, (2) He sent His son to die on the cross so we may have everlasting life with Him in heaven.  So, if you have a god that loves himself more than you, you're with the wrong "god".  Visit a church and talk it over with a Pastor, he'll be able to help you out.
Well, if God loved us more than himself, his love would be more centrifugal than centripetal, which would disturb his perfect personality. He must love himself more than us. And the Bible was at least partly written by people who had a purpose. The truth is somehow different, at least partly.






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