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Why can't some people see ghosts?


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#391    sinewave

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 02:56 PM

View Postfldinosaur, on 06 June 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

No but it helps. Any psychic or medium will tell you if your mind is open to the possibilities, the greater the chances.
And there are those who are just so against such things that they will never either have an experience or believe it if they do.

I don't doubt that belief can make things seem real to those who believe.


#392    Nenaraz

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 02:59 PM

View PostForever Cursed, on 06 June 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

I've spent most of my adult life  4x4  around the desert, camping, hiking and I have seen most things the land had to offer, but I saw something just about a year ago I had never seen and while driving down a country road, at first I thought it was a Coyote, but when I got closer I saw it was  Bob Cat.  Now I knew they were here, but I had never seen one in the wild before. But the point being is that even when you are out looking you may never see anything, but then there is going to be that one day when you don't expect it. But that one day may never come  for some, especially if they have never even tried to see for them self's. I went out and collected EVPs, why ? Just to see if I could. And it was easy, went to Wal-Mart and bought  and RCA  RP5022A  recorder w/disk for $25.00.  There are those who will arm chair an argument, and those who will become proactive and look for them self's. Most who actually investigate to see for them self's often come to a different conclusion than those who do not.

Reminded me of this




#393    Forever Cursed

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 03:09 PM

lol ya I love to watch a very similar program on TV. I am one of those who see's the gorilla most of the time, every now and then they get me. :tsu:


#394    fldinosaur

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 03:10 PM

forever cursed....well said.

Dr. No......I believe and have had 4 years worth of experiences...stills, video, voice recorder (RCA) and SB-7. Only once have I "heard" her waking me up the next morning for work like she did when I overslept the alarm. Have never seen anything with my own eyes or otherwise heard or smelled anything.

nenaraz...nice test but has what to do with the paranormal? I've never seen an orb play basketball!

sinewave...that is true but isn't seeing and hearing go beyond belief/faith?


#395    Nenaraz

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 03:14 PM

Well the test (which smells of '90 VHS) is meant to portray that people can easily miss the obvious even when told to do it. You can't miss the gorilla, that's the hidden point of the test, and as such it'll be extremely hard for you to count the ball pass around the numbers of 11 and 15. I personally lost at 13 since the Gorilla was obviously not a real gorilla and it was an eyesore.

Even without the test it simply reminded me of what Forever Cursed wrote :D which tells me that people can be secluded from seeing things even when those are obviously in front of them.

This is the case that comes to my mind, Perceptual Blindness

http://www.forteanti..._blindness.html

Edited by Nenaraz, 06 June 2014 - 03:16 PM.


#396    fldinosaur

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 03:25 PM

Kind of test given to police to train their eyes to see evidence.  Not the same as seeing paranormal or not. If you believe in the possibility that orbs are paranormal then that's what they are. If you believe orbs are dust, anything but paranormal, then that's what you will believe.

Again, unless you've done it yourself, how do you know? Most debunkers have NEVER gone out with equipment of any kind, just relied on passed down theories.


#397    Nenaraz

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 03:30 PM

I personally do not believe in paranormal, only normal - but not explored. I'm not sure what you're pointing at, I'm not trying to debunk anything.


#398    spacelizard667

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:51 PM

View Postdr no, on 06 June 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

If ghosts exist anybody should be able to see them it shouldn't matter a single iota whether you believe in them or not.

Actually it is not their proper nature to manifest to the living....that would happen only in extreme or extraordinary circumstances. So much that I have read seems to depend on the assumption that ghosts if they exist at all would manifest [to the living, and would obviously become much better known.] And therefore available for scientific study, but not so. Ordinarily a spirit who rests properly does not make itself known, it is only those spirits who are not adjusting to their afterlife that cause ripples in consciousness and those who by the odd chance or an astral plan ally themselves with a living contact, a psychic or medium, that communicate. So a ghost that is well adjusted in it's own afterlife might properly have no desire to communicate with the living at all.

Actually many people who never really gave much attention to ghosts before have contributed to the volumns of reports of ghost activity over decades. There is of course an enhanced chance that ghosts respond more favorably when they're not unrested by hecklers and 'unbelievers'.....however, they can still make themselves known.

Edited by spacelizard667, 07 June 2014 - 12:56 PM.


#399    Frank Merton

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 12:56 PM

View Postfldinosaur, on 06 June 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

    Hvashi....Not everyone is sensitive enough. If their mind is open to the possibilities then they will be able to see, hear, feel. If one doesn't believe, not open to the possibility, they will never experience anything.
Self-flattering way to think.  What if someone has simply never encountered one and never given it any thought?


#400    Paranormalcy

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 01:26 PM

The problem with the "ghosts aren't naturally suited to manifesting to everyone" or "only special people can see them" counterpoints is that they are completely empty when it comes to objective examination using the absolutely most rudimentary idea of science - they fail the test of being falsifiable. If you can always meet the "are they or aren't they" with "it changes with the person/situation" but with no repeatibility of any of the dynamics, then it is not valid and can never BE valid until either it IS able to conform to SOME form of scientific scrutiny, or a new approach in science is developed that CAN quantify such things. Motes of light that have no effect on anything, radio stations on an electronic box, scratchy static on a recorder or people getting goosebumps can NOT be the basis of how we approach what we are trying to study, as solid supporting material.

That said, I don't think there's any harm in hypothesizing and even just guessing, about different things. That is, after all, in a very primitive way, how science works - you develop an idea of how you think a thing might work, or how you might detect it, and you test it (with as much control as possible to eliminate misidentification). I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea of examining ideas like "very sensitive people" or possibly undetected waves of some kind, or mass psychich resonance (a term I think I came up with) that explains an interplay between critical-minded individuals and more liberal proponents. You can go with those ideas, and check them out, but you can't just stop at some point and affirm "Yep, that's definitely what it is" with no true evidential support.

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#401    spacelizard667

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 01:46 PM

Okay, so I can agree that nobody should be saying, we've reached the stopping point and that's it. And I love to finally hear somebody else to say that path has yet further to go. Thanx a million.


#402    sinewave

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 02:50 PM

View Postspacelizard667, on 07 June 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

Actually it is not their proper nature to manifest to the living....that would happen only in extreme or extraordinary circumstances. So much that I have read seems to depend on the assumption that ghosts if they exist at all would manifest [to the living, and would obviously become much better known.] And therefore available for scientific study, but not so. Ordinarily a spirit who rests properly does not make itself known, it is only those spirits who are not adjusting to their afterlife that cause ripples in consciousness and those who by the odd chance or an astral plan ally themselves with a living contact, a psychic or medium, that communicate. So a ghost that is well adjusted in it's own afterlife might properly have no desire to communicate with the living at all.

Actually many people who never really gave much attention to ghosts before have contributed to the volumns of reports of ghost activity over decades. There is of course an enhanced chance that ghosts respond more favorably when they're not unrested by hecklers and 'unbelievers'.....however, they can still make themselves known.

But why would you think that?  How could you know all of that without some body of work as a reference?  What is the source for that information and how do you know it is true?


#403    Nenaraz

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 03:05 PM

I've met people who claimed to be psychic, but none of them claimed to have the ability to "talk to the dead". I've seen this happening only in the US and in the US movies and shows. Such an example is the, well recent history, "Ghost Whisperer" show.

Now, I've met a kid back in the kindergarten who, in the broad daylight, said that he can manipulate ghosts and that they'll start to aggressively shake the kindergarten window which was on the very high position.
The boy who was not from the kindergarten, yet was in the yard sitting on the stairs, said that he lives only with his sister and that their parents died not too long ago. He held some white stones and me and my friend didn't believe him for the ghosts. Suddenly the window started to share so forcefully that we thought it'll crash. The only way that physically that exact window could start shaking that much is if someone took two broomsticks (attached one to another) and started shaking the window.

I disregard any possibility that the kid was doing so for the sake of scaring us, nor that he had any help "on the inside" since I'm sure that the numerous dormitor ladies would surely forbid it or take away the brooms. Still, the question is whether the kids would get those brooms and be able to actually, on the inside, shake the window so forcefully (and soundly).Me and my friend started laughing in amazement and ran away in fear.

The kid who showed us that was exceptionally calm, with very weak to non-existent facial expressions, pale blue eyes and blue hair, I don't remember what he wore. I think he was sitting there either with his sister or with another kid, so it was four of us and quite away from the given window which was at least two floors in height.

I still think it's a prank of sorts.

What do you folk think?
If anyone was shaking the windows at the exact moment that he said it would shake it would have to be only dormitory ladies who maintenance things. But I've seen none.


#404    enigma7

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 03:53 PM

View Postsinewave, on 30 May 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

Where is the part where they regarded them as superstition?  The absence of a concrete explanation is not the same thing.  There is still no precedent in science for the idea of consciousness surviving death. It is also difficult to accept the notion that this "truth" that is so obvious to some can be so illusive to those who would try to understand it.   The whole thing sounds a lot like faith to me.

Except there is scientific precedent... I'm not a fan of blindly having "faith" either and it used to bother me that I didn't have what I saw as logical validity for certain beliefs, but I've come to realize even science shouldn't be taken at face value. Seems like some people reject religious fundamentalism (which they should) but then end up going to the opposite extreme of essentially worshiping science and "rationality". There is a middle ground. And again, this isn't even outside of the realm of science really...

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#405    sinewave

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 04:46 PM

View Postenigma7, on 07 June 2014 - 03:53 PM, said:

Except there is scientific precedent... I'm not a fan of blindly having "faith" either and it used to bother me that I didn't have what I saw as logical validity for certain beliefs, but I've come to realize even science shouldn't be taken at face value. Seems like some people reject religious fundamentalism (which they should) but then end up going to the opposite extreme of essentially worshiping science and "rationality". There is a middle ground. And again, this isn't even outside of the realm of science really...

http://www.robertlan...h-isnt-the-end/

The scientific method is honored to the point of worship perhaps but the findings of the method are not and should not be regarded that way.  Findings are always considered open and subject to change which cannot be said for religions and other systems of belief. So no, science is not a substitute for belief, it is something completely different.  

There is no precedent in science for concept of human consciousness surviving death as a sentient energy entity  Despite the various belief systems devised to explain our mortality, we are a function of the matter comprising our cells and nothing more.  There is simply no evidence to support the notion there is some magical life force that lingers for a time after we die.  We are a collection of bio-chemical processes that work in relative harmony for a time and then stop or are stopped.  We may live on in the minds of those who survive us but in their minds is where we stay.





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