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The UNHCR: Stateless People


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#1    Yamato

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 01:39 AM

From UNHCR's website:

Nationality is a legal bond between a state and an individual, and statelessness refers to the condition of an individual who is not considered as a national by any state. Although stateless people may sometimes also be refugees, the two categories are distinct and both groups are of concern to UNHCR.

Statelessness occurs for a variety of reasons including discrimination against minority groups in nationality legislation, failure to include all residents in the body of citizens when a state becomes independent (state succession) and conflicts of laws between states.


Statelessness is a massive problem that affects at least 10 million people worldwide. Statelessness also has a terrible impact on the lives of individuals. Possession of nationality is essential for full participation in society and a prerequisite for the enjoyment of the full range of human rights.

While human rights are generally to be enjoyed by everyone, selected rights such as the right to vote may be limited to nationals. Of even greater concern is that many more rights of stateless people are violated in practice - they are often unable to obtain identity documents; they may be detained because they are stateless; and they could be denied access to education and health services or blocked from obtaining employment.


http://www.unhcr.org...9c3646c155.html

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This is why Palestine matters.   Statehood makes the difference between self-determination, and slavery at the hands of another's government.   The details of Israel-Palestine don't make it an exception to the rule.   There is no excuse in the world from 3000 years ago or 70 years ago to justify abusing the human rights of innocent people today, anywhere in the world.  And if it does happen anywhere, it needs to be stopped.

Edited by Yamato, 04 April 2014 - 01:54 AM.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#2    RavenHawk

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 05:01 AM

10 million is not a massive problem.  Yes, it is a misfortunate situation.  There are 7 billion people on this little blue dot.  That is something like one tenth of one percent.  In addition, have you ever thought about the consequences?  If you make those 10 million state-full, you could very easily cause 20 million others to become stateless.  With 7 billion, it is physically impossible to make everyone happy.  Does that register?  Let me guess; is 10 million the estimated number of Palestinians on the planet?

Actually, I do agree with you that it is a massive problem.  I believe that it is far more than just a mere 10 million.  The poor in this nation are better off than about 80% of the rest of the world.  Thatís about 5.6 billion that live in a state of poverty that most probably donít vote unless herded to a voting station and then votes for whoever they are told.  They live very meagerly if not in squalor.  Their level of education is probably below even a basic standard.  There is no upward mobility for them.  The plight of the Palestinian is minuscule compared to them.

Not all cultures are meant to survive.  It is a law of evolution.  Youíd do better to just worry about the poor in your own neighborhood and let nature take its course.

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#3    RoofGardener

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 04:49 PM

View PostYamato, on 04 April 2014 - 01:39 AM, said:

From UNHCR's website:

Nationality is a legal bond between a state and an individual, and statelessness refers to the condition of an individual who is not considered as a national by any state. Although stateless people may sometimes also be refugees, the two categories are distinct and both groups are of concern to UNHCR.

Statelessness occurs for a variety of reasons including discrimination against minority groups in nationality legislation, failure to include all residents in the body of citizens when a state becomes independent (state succession) and conflicts of laws between states.


Statelessness is a massive problem that affects at least 10 million people worldwide. Statelessness also has a terrible impact on the lives of individuals. Possession of nationality is essential for full participation in society and a prerequisite for the enjoyment of the full range of human rights.

While human rights are generally to be enjoyed by everyone, selected rights such as the right to vote may be limited to nationals. Of even greater concern is that many more rights of stateless people are violated in practice - they are often unable to obtain identity documents; they may be detained because they are stateless; and they could be denied access to education and health services or blocked from obtaining employment.


http://www.unhcr.org...9c3646c155.html

This is why Palestine matters.   Statehood makes the difference between self-determination, and slavery at the hands of another's government.   The details of Israel-Palestine don't make it an exception to the rule.   There is no excuse in the world from 3000 years ago or 70 years ago to justify abusing the human rights of innocent people today, anywhere in the world.  And if it does happen anywhere, it needs to be stopped.
Most Palestinians DID have nationality. Mostly - prior to 1988 - they where Jordanians. Then, in around 1990 -  for the first time EVER in history -  they became Palestinian Nationals, citizens of the new state of Palestine. (this only apples to Palestinians in the former mandate areas, and specifically the so-called "West Bank territories". Palestinians in Hamas-Occupied-Gaza are a different case.. and a much sadder one)

Their nation is under occupation at the moment, but they could end THAT tomorrow; all they have to do is recognise Israel as a sovereign Jewish State, and agree to meaningful peace terms. Sadly, that is unlikely to happen for as long as the Musim Brotherhood controls the leadership of the PLO, or that HAMAS occupies Gaza.

Edited by RoofGardener, 04 April 2014 - 04:53 PM.

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#4    Yamato

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Posted 04 April 2014 - 09:36 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 04 April 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

10 million is not a massive problem.  Yes, it is a misfortunate situation.  There are 7 billion people on this little blue dot.  That is something like one tenth of one percent.  In addition, have you ever thought about the consequences?  If you make those 10 million state-full, you could very easily cause 20 million others to become stateless.  With 7 billion, it is physically impossible to make everyone happy.  Does that register?  Let me guess; is 10 million the estimated number of Palestinians on the planet?

Actually, I do agree with you that it is a massive problem.  I believe that it is far more than just a mere 10 million.  The poor in this nation are better off than about 80% of the rest of the world.  That's about 5.6 billion that live in a state of poverty that most probably don't vote unless herded to a voting station and then votes for whoever they are told.  They live very meagerly if not in squalor.  Their level of education is probably below even a basic standard.  There is no upward mobility for them.  The plight of the Palestinian is minuscule compared to them.

Not all cultures are meant to survive.  It is a law of evolution.  You'd do better to just worry about the poor in your own neighborhood and let nature take its course.
That's what Nazi Germany said.   Are you Col Klink?   I don't want to banter with someone justifying ethnic cleansing and genocide.   If you can't understand or even recognize the problem, you won't be helpful to solve it.  

How many Palestinians are there?   100% of them are stateless.   Asylum-seekers are quasi-stateless people too but I don't know if and doubt they would be added into the numbers.  

View PostRoofGardener, on 04 April 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

Most Palestinians DID have nationality. Mostly - prior to 1988 - they where Jordanians. Then, in around 1990 -  for the first time EVER in history -  they became Palestinian Nationals, citizens of the new state of Palestine. (this only apples to Palestinians in the former mandate areas, and specifically the so-called "West Bank territories". Palestinians in Hamas-Occupied-Gaza are a different case.. and a much sadder one)

Their nation is under occupation at the moment, but they could end THAT tomorrow; all they have to do is recognise Israel as a sovereign Jewish State, and agree to meaningful peace terms. Sadly, that is unlikely to happen for as long as the Musim Brotherhood controls the leadership of the PLO, or that HAMAS occupies Gaza.
The first time ever?   Palestine was created by the same authority and at the same time as Israel.  If we are going to rely on the UN to create Israel, we have to do the same for Palestine or else we're not adhering to council resolutions.   Israel has ignored the UN via US veto ever since.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#5    RoofGardener

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Posted 05 April 2014 - 10:22 PM

View PostYamato, on 04 April 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

.....
The first time ever?   Palestine was created by the same authority and at the same time as Israel.  If we are going to rely on the UN to create Israel, we have to do the same for Palestine or else we're not adhering to council resolutions.   Israel has ignored the UN via US veto ever since.
Ummmm.... noooo... I don't think that's correct, Yamato ? My understanding is that the UN never implemented the mandate, because the Arabs said "No".
Israel declared its independence unilaterally, albeit following the UN Mandate plan. Then the Arab League attacked and - ultimately - occupied most of the "Palestinian" mandate areas (Gaza Strip, West Bank, and East Jerusalem). The residents of those areas become.. well... Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian.

the Arab League never permitted the official creation of a "Nation of  Palestine", because to do so would be to legitimise the existence of Israel. The Arab position was that ALL of the former Mandate Territory belonged to Arabs, and that the Jews should just....well.... disappear.

We're talking about the late 1940's and early 1950's here. So far, I think what happened was essentially an Arab geo-political land-grab. However, by now the Muslim Brotherhood where getting increasingly involved, and they started to form what was to become the Palestine Liberation Organisation, injecting a dose of Islamic colonial theology into the mixture. This helped in preventing the creation of a Palestinian State for almost 40 years, long after the more secular geo-political motives of the old Arab League had mellowed in the face of repeated Arab military failures against Israel, and a rising tide of pragmatism.

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#6    Yamato

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 04:43 AM

Sorry RoofGardener, please provide sources for this information so you can at least be treated credibly enough that your questions be entertained and your analysis be taken seriously.  I've asked you for sources on things you've claimed already and I got crickets.   Where does your understanding come from?   Sources please.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#7    RavenHawk

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 05:22 AM

View PostYamato, on 04 April 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

That's what Nazi Germany said.  
Is that like your claim that Hitler invented preventative war?

Quote

Are you Col Klink?   I don't want to banter with someone
If you didnít banter then why are you?  You just keep showing everyone your ignorance.

Quote

justifying ethnic cleansing and genocide.  
No one has to justify things like natural law, it just is.

Well which is it?  If itís genocide then show me the mass graves and ovens.  If itís ethnic cleansing then you had better learn history.  The Palestinian is at it evolutionary end.

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If you can't understand or even recognize the problem, you won't be helpful to solve it.  
Oh, I see the problem alright and you are part of it.  Your hatred for Israel blinds you to the problem.  Every single time you invoke the larger issue and then ignore all other manifestations of it just to express your hatred of Isreal.

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How many Palestinians are there?   100% of them are stateless.   Asylum-seekers are quasi-stateless people too but I don't know if and doubt they would be added into the numbers.  
How Ďbout just the poor in most countries?  For all practical purposes, they are refugees in their own country.  That is nearly 5.6 billion people that are disenfranchised to one degree or another.  I have the feeling that if it was Israel on the other end and the Jews were forced back into dhimmitude, we wouldnít hear a peep from you about the genocide the Palestinians are committing on the Jew.

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#8    RoofGardener

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 10:38 AM

View PostYamato, on 07 April 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

Sorry RoofGardener, please provide sources for this information so you can at least be treated credibly enough that your questions be entertained and your analysis be taken seriously.  I've asked you for sources on things you've claimed already and I got crickets.   Where does your understanding come from?   Sources please.
Yeah.... fair point, up to a point. Many of my posts synthesise information I've picked up over the years from multiple sources. Mostly internet articles, some newspapers, a few books, and debating on this and other forums. I also frequently tend to put my opinions in my posts, without citing sources for every single opinion. So sue me - I have a real life outside of these fora, and don't always feel like writing a formal thesis each time I post.

In regard the post in particular.. well.. lets see...
Regarding the creation of the State of Palestine (and the fact that it wasn't done by the UN), there is a helpful timeline article by Al jazeera

I associate the Muslim Brotherhood with influencing events  partly due to the close relationship between them and Yasser Arrafat, and also their direct hand in creating the HAMAS movement. I'd refer you to the wikipedia articles on Arrafat and HAMAS for a starting point on that relationship.

As for suppression of the creation of a Nation of Palestine; that was ingrained into the Arab Leagues doctrine from the beginning, and was also espoused within the charter of the PLO. Their stated objective was to destroy Israel as a state. Obviously, creating a separate state of Palestine - whillst Israel still existed - would be to imply a recognition of Israel, and a definition of Palestine that excluded Israeli territory.

I hope that helped ?

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And the lingering illness Is over at last—
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#9    RavenHawk

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 01:21 PM

View PostRoofGardener, on 07 April 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

Yeah.... fair point, up to a point. Many of my posts synthesise information I've picked up over the years from multiple sources. Mostly internet articles, some newspapers, a few books, and debating on this and other forums. I also frequently tend to put my opinions in my posts, without citing sources for every single opinion. So sue me - I have a real life outside of these fora, and don't always feel like writing a formal thesis each time I post.
To Yam, nothing existed before the internet so if itís not readily available here then itís all a Zionist lie.  He doesnít understand that people did research the old fashioned way.  What you present is good information Ė nothing new.  But to him, itís all proof of Zionist control of the MSM.  Or some other excuse.  But Iíll let you decide for yourself on the character of Yam.

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#10    Sir Smoke aLot

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 01:54 PM

Those kids are playing football at ruins of their city but they seem happy and playfull like any other child anywhere.

Whats funny... There are people who tell that kids on that picture dont have nation, dont have history, dont have right to have their country and they dont have right to talk about their origins... Because they ( the kids ) are 'wrong', from both scientific and religious view point. But do u see, those kids are alive!? Then, they have history. Oh, how this reminds me of something from my past...

One thing is for sure - there can be oppression - for 5 years, 50 years or even 500 years but in the end, there will be peace and two countries, Israel and Palestina. Man can only strive to steal land from Palestina but the man isnt ethernal, better generations will come, eventually. This dam world needs a change, 5 rich man could solve Israel and Palestina conflict.

Edited by Sir Smoke aLot, 07 April 2014 - 01:55 PM.

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#11    RavenHawk

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 02:22 PM

View PostSir Smoke aLot, on 07 April 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Those kids are playing football at ruins of their city but they seem happy and playfull like any other child anywhere.
Whose fault is that?  Itís not Israelís.  Try the parents.

Quote

Whats funny... There are people who tell that kids on that picture dont have nation, dont have history, dont have right to have their country and they dont have right to talk about their origins... Because they ( the kids ) are 'wrong', from both scientific and religious view point. But do u see, those kids are alive!? Then, they have history. Oh, how this reminds me of something from my past...
No one is saying they are wrong to have a right to a country.  No one is denying their history.  But their parents hold an ideology that is incompatible to a two-state solution.  And as long as they do, Israel will defend herself from it.

The thing is is that squatters donít usually have proper ownership of the land.  They have no deeds.  That is their history.  Their history and mindset is also heavily based in the concept of Shirk.  They are not allowed to partner authority of Allah with any other deity.  And that is what they would have to do in order to share the land with Israel.  And for that, there can be no two-state solution.  There is nothing that even 100 rich men could solve.

This will change.  The Palestinian culture will eventually fold back into the general Arab populace and these people will no longer be used by the Islamic world as cannon fodder to attack Israel.  Once that source of agitation is removed, real peace might prevail between Israel and her neighbors.

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#12    Sir Smoke aLot

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 02:48 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 07 April 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

Whose fault is that?  It's not Israel's.  Try the parents.


No one is saying they are wrong to have a right to a country.  No one is denying their history.  But their parents hold an ideology that is incompatible to a two-state solution.  And as long as they do, Israel will defend herself from it.

The thing is is that squatters don't usually have proper ownership of the land.  They have no deeds.  That is their history.  Their history and mindset is also heavily based in the concept of Shirk.  They are not allowed to partner authority of Allah with any other deity.  And that is what they would have to do in order to share the land with Israel.  And for that, there can be no two-state solution.  There is nothing that even 100 rich men could solve.

This will change.  The Palestinian culture will eventually fold back into the general Arab populace and these people will no longer be used by the Islamic world as cannon fodder to attack Israel.  Once that source of agitation is removed, real peace might prevail between Israel and her neighbors.

I never said its Israel fault but u are so fast to accuse their parents who live in occupied land.  We can call them squatters, ok, but if so then there was a reason that they are squatters now, isnt it? Were they squatters always?

Anyways, it is long story and not something that i would like to discuss. Two state solution is only logical and honest, for all the people there and its not possible today not only because Allah 'said so' to palestinians but because, obviously, Israel have its own interests that are far from only ' defending its citizens from mad arabs '.

With years of war palestinians have divided, one part is for peace with Israel and others dont wonna even discuss such solution. After decades of war its not surprise that one part dont wonna have peace. Its like u terrorize me in school days, for years, and now u wonna be my best friend? Sry man, u better run. I havent forgot a thing that u have done to me before. But here we have greater picture, it wasnt just kick me, make fun of me... Whole families gone missing, whole villages burned...

Long story man. Was it the part where i said ' Two state solution ' that grab your attention? I dont mind seeing world map with Israel and Palestine and every problem in this world can be solved with money because the money is cause to almost all problems so i still believe that 5 rich man would solve problems there, or anywhere in the world.

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#13    RavenHawk

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 03:14 PM

Hereís a what-if scenario to ask yourself.  If Israel did not declare statehood in 48 or even if the Balfour Declaration was not proposed in the teens, what would Palestine look like today?  By 1922, it was declared unorganized territory because there was not enough Palestinians that owned land or even had a legitimate deed.  I see two possibilities.  One, without the Ottoman influence, the up keep of Palestine would continue to degrade.  Photos of the al-Aqsa Mosque from the 1880s show a state of dilapidation.  This would probably continue to be the state of the land even today and the children would be playing football in ruins.  The other possibility would be that because it is unorganized territory, Palestineís neighbors would begin to make claims and divvy up the land.  Egypt would grab Gaza and the Negev.  Jordan would take the West Bank.  Syria and Lebanon would grab the northern parts (not wanting to be left out).  The Palestinians would face the same treatment that they already have in Lebanon and Jordan.  Would we see the same outrage about the Palestinians having their own state or would we just ignore and leave the ďArabsĒ alone?

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#14    RavenHawk

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 03:51 PM

View PostSir Smoke aLot, on 07 April 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

I never said its Israel fault but u are so fast to accuse their parents who live in occupied land.  We can call them squatters, ok, but if so then there was a reason that they are squatters now, isnt it? Were they squatters always?
The implication was there.  Is there any way I can accuse the parents any faster?  Yes, they were always squatters.  Thatís what semi nomadic tribes do.  A minority was able to purchase land from the rightful land owners with a legal deed in hand and Israel has incorporated them into the nation.

Quote

Anyways, it is long story and not something that i would like to discuss. Two state solution is only logical and honest, for all the people there and its not possible today not only because Allah 'said so' to palestinians but because, obviously, Israel have its own interests that are far from only ' defending its citizens from mad arabs '.
It is not logical or honest because it doesnít take into account the sensibilities of the two parties.  It only takes into account the sensibilities of the non-Islamic world.  And then it is even stretching it.  The 47 borders establish essentially three separate parts to each nation.  One defining attribute of any nation is the ability to self-defense.  A nation cannot defend itself so partitioned.  The 67 borders are just as bad, no nation can survive with a divided homeland.  There is no logical or honest division for a two state-solution.

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With years of war palestinians have divided, one part is for peace with Israel and others dont wonna even discuss such solution. After decades of war its not surprise that one part dont wonna have peace. Its like u terrorize me in school days, for years, and now u wonna be my best friend? Sry man, u better run. I havent forgot a thing that u have done to me before. But here we have greater picture, it wasnt just kick me, make fun of me... Whole families gone missing, whole villages burned...
If I was the one terrorizing you for years, then I would be playing the part of the Muslim.  Years of Dhimmitude takes its toll.  After places like Auschwitz, Muslims better run.  Jews werenít going to take anymore crap.  Yet Israel has always kept the possibility of peace on the table, but the Muslim keeps swiping it off the table.

Quote

Long story man. Was it the part where i said ' Two state solution ' that grab your attention? I dont mind seeing world map with Israel and Palestine and every problem in this world can be solved with money because the money is cause to almost all problems so i still believe that 5 rich man would solve problems there, or anywhere in the world.
I guess the misinformation grabbed my attention.  Itís true that every man has his price but you are talking about changing Islamic dogma.  No 5 rich men have the money to change that.  Thatís like saying that 5 rich men could remove the requirement to be baptized in the Christian faith.

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#15    Yamato

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:47 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 07 April 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

Is that like your claim that Hitler invented preventative war?


If you didn't banter then why are you?  You just keep showing everyone your ignorance.


No one has to justify things like natural law, it just is.

Well which is it?  If it's genocide then show me the mass graves and ovens.  If it's ethnic cleansing then you had better learn history.  The Palestinian is at it evolutionary end.


Oh, I see the problem alright and you are part of it.  Your hatred for Israel blinds you to the problem.  Every single time you invoke the larger issue and then ignore all other manifestations of it just to express your hatred of Isreal.


How 'bout just the poor in most countries?  For all practical purposes, they are refugees in their own country.  That is nearly 5.6 billion people that are disenfranchised to one degree or another.  I have the feeling that if it was Israel on the other end and the Jews were forced back into dhimmitude, we wouldn't hear a peep from you about the genocide the Palestinians are committing on the Jew.
Dwight Eisenhower claimed that Hitler invented preventative war.  And you're in blind denial of it.

It's genocide; it's no a choice; I showed you a map and a definition.    I don't need mass graves and ovens to get genocide.   Don't confuse words in dictionaries with specific events from WW2.

I don't hate nations and by the same token I don't love nations.  I don't love the flag.  I don't love to wave it.  I'm not symbol-minded and I'm the farthest thing from a nationalist that you can get.    But why is this always about me?

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10 million is not a massive problem.   Actually, I do agree with you that it is a massive problem.
Well that about has you covered.

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How 'bout just the poor in most countries?
The poor in most countries are not being occupied; and you are only responsible for the poor in your own.   Not Israel.  

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For all practical purposes, they are refugees in their own country.
No they're not refugees; you spin the definitions of words so dizzy you can't possibly know what they mean.  

Quote

I have the feeling that if it was Israel on the other end and the Jews were forced back into dhimmitude, we wouldn't hear a peep from you about the genocide the Palestinians are committing on the Jew.
You have a feeling anytime somebody says something that infers criticism of Israel.   I don't even say the word Israel in the post and you come right out with the same old pathetic anti-semitic crap, on schedule.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela




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