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South Korean ferry sinking


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#1    Peter B

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 04:08 PM

http://www.abc.net.a...d-agony/5397406

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Anger is growing among grieving parents and relatives as confusion and conflicting reports emerge about the South Korean ferry disaster which has killed at least 14 people.

Among the 282 people missing are hundreds of teenage school children, believed to be trapped after the ferry sank about 20 kilometres off the south-west coast of the country.

I have to admit that when I first heard this story I wondered whether a North Korean submarine was responsible. Given the descriptions of what happened that seems implausible.

Instead it seems the ship drifted off course and hit a reef. Hopefully the cause will be established fairly quickly, although that will be faint comfort for the relatives of the missing.

I also note that the captain did a "Schettino" and got off the ship before most of the passengers.


#2    MissJatti

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 04:14 PM

north korea are now targeting south korea's teenagers

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#3    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:56 PM

Of course, there's a handy scapegoat north of the border that I bet the SK government will be keen to insinuate may have had some involvement to cover up shortcomings in safety standards.

If, as it seems, we are in the process of becoming a totalitarian society in which the state apparatus is all-powerful, the ethics most important for the survival of the true, free, human individual would be: cheat, lie, evade, fake it, be elsewhere, forge documents, build improved electronic gadgets in your garage that’ll outwit the gadgets used by the authorities.

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#4    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:56 PM

Of course, there's a handy scapegoat north of the border that I bet the SK government will be keen to insinuate may have had some involvement to cover up shortcomings in safety standards.

If, as it seems, we are in the process of becoming a totalitarian society in which the state apparatus is all-powerful, the ethics most important for the survival of the true, free, human individual would be: cheat, lie, evade, fake it, be elsewhere, forge documents, build improved electronic gadgets in your garage that’ll outwit the gadgets used by the authorities.

- Philip K. Dick.


#5    RoofGardener

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 09:23 PM

I must admit, as I started to read about this tragedy, my thoughts where...

Well....

WAS this an accident, or a North Korean torpedo ?

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#6    docyabut2

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 11:29 PM

Another tragedy in this world , so sad my heart goes out to the parents,hopefully they find some alive trapped in pockets.


#7    third_eye

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 11:33 PM

negligence ~ and cowardice ~ on the part of the 'captain' ~

made off with the first lifeboat on his own and without ensuring other life boats were dispatched ~ I doubt he'll survive till the end of the month ~

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#8    docyabut2

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 01:04 AM

Just like  that movie Posiden adventure they should have never told those kids to stay where they are now they have to climb to the botten of the boat  that turned up side down to get out  before the water gets in.Sadly I just don't think the two hundred will survive in the cold or the water .


#9    zebra99

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 02:11 AM

If ever I find myself on a listing ship,the last thing I would do is head inboard to my cabin. It would take a big crewman with a shotgun to get me to leave the open deck.

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#10    DONTEATUS

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 02:56 AM

View Postzebra99, on 19 April 2014 - 02:11 AM, said:

If ever I find myself on a listing ship,the last thing I would do is head inboard to my cabin. It would take a big crewman with a shotgun to get me to leave the open deck.
There would not be even a thousanth`s of a second BEfore I would be out on the deck also ! Cutting a Life boat free myself ! People The Ocean will Kill you If you dont know whats going on ! S/A is the order of the Day!
Pray for the Families ! the Children have perished ! Even there Head master Took His own life in respect for the Loss ! Old School solution !

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#11    RoofGardener

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 10:56 AM

I just don't understand this.
The stories include the theory that the ship hit an underwater rock, sufficiently large to create a gash along the side (Titanic-style) that allowed more water to flood in than the stabalisers could deal with.

But the ship sank in 30m of water. And why has no journalist reported on the exact location of the ship, and correlated that with sea charts ?

Now we hearing that the ship suddenly swerved just prior to the event. The helmsman stated that he DID turn, but that the steering gear hugely over-reacted and produced an uncommanded, abnormally sharp turn. So a new theory (pure speculation) is that the cargo shifted as a result of the turn, destabalising the ship and causing it to list.

But surely a list - in and of itself - wouldn't then cause the ship to sink ? OK... sure.. if it listed to the point that cabin windows where underwater then perhaps water could get in - but that would require a list of 90 degrees or more (e.g. the ship would have to be on its side). Could "shifting cargo" REALLY cause a list of that magnitude ? On first glance, that seems to break the laws of physics. I mean... the entire contents of the cargo hold would have to spontaneously plaster itself against one side of the hull ?

I seem to recall one article that cited passengers as having heard a 'bang'. Well... that could be the ship hitting a rock, or the cargo shifting I guess.

And then there is the sheer speed at which it happened... something like five hours between "the event" and the final sinking ? OK, the Titanic sank in just 2.5 hours, but the gash in its hull was HUGE.

Wouldn't such a gash have been visible when the ship turned upside down ? Wouldn't the dozens of divers have noticed it ?

To summarise:
Journalists are interviewing "experts" to produce various theories, but are they realistic ?
  • In regards the 'shifting cargo' theory: why has nobody reported on the cargo manifest to see what was IN the ship ?
  • In regards the 'submerged rock' theory: Why has nobody reported on the precise location of the ship, and discussed this with oceanography experts to see if an underwater collision with a rock is possible in that area ?
  • Why has nobody reported on the location of the ship, and compared that with the standard route to see if the ship was off-course ? I mean... isn't that a BASIC aspect of this event ?
Something is just WRONG with the story as it is being presented.
There is an elephant in the room, and everybody is studiously avoiding mentioning it.
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#12    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 03:11 PM

Yup, as I said, enter the usual scapegoat. Yes, i expect it won't be long before they announce that they've found the actual torpedo that was fired by the N. Korean sub, and which (of course) will be miraculously so little damaged that they're able to read the actual N. Korean writing on it, just like with the Cheonan. I don't suppose the absence of any sign of an explosion, and the fact that, for a ship hit by a torpedo, the ferry seemed to display remarkably little sign of damage in the pictures that have been released, really matter, since this was probably one of those non-exploding torpedos that the NK Navy seem to be getting so proficient with. And also at their ability to penetrate S. Korean waters unnoticed, and make their exit unnoticed, although of course there's no S. Korean or US naval presence anywhere in those waters, is there.


Would you like to bring in MH370 as well while you're at it?

If, as it seems, we are in the process of becoming a totalitarian society in which the state apparatus is all-powerful, the ethics most important for the survival of the true, free, human individual would be: cheat, lie, evade, fake it, be elsewhere, forge documents, build improved electronic gadgets in your garage that’ll outwit the gadgets used by the authorities.

- Philip K. Dick.


#13    Peter B

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 04:14 PM

View PostRoofGardener, on 19 April 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

I just don't understand this.

The stories include the theory that the ship hit an underwater rock, sufficiently large to create a gash along the side (Titanic-style) that allowed more water to flood in than the stabalisers could deal with.

But the ship sank in 30m of water.

I don't see what your problem is. If the ship hit a rock then it would still travel a distance before stopping - presumably enough to move from the reef to deeper water. However, as you point out below, that theory appears to have been discarded.

Quote

And why has no journalist reported on the exact location of the ship, and correlated that with sea charts ?

Why do you say that? It's location is given on Wikipedia. Perhaps someone has and you haven't found it. However, unless you know the ship's location to within 100 metres you can't really be sure what the sea floor is like in the vicinity.

Quote

Now we hearing that the ship suddenly swerved just prior to the event. The helmsman stated that he DID turn, but that the steering gear hugely over-reacted and produced an uncommanded, abnormally sharp turn. So a new theory (pure speculation) is that the cargo shifted as a result of the turn, destabalising the ship and causing it to list.

But surely a list - in and of itself - wouldn't then cause the ship to sink ? OK... sure.. if it listed to the point that cabin windows where underwater then perhaps water could get in - but that would require a list of 90 degrees or more (e.g. the ship would have to be on its side).

Yes, a list alone would be sufficient, if the list was severe enough. But it wouldn't need to be 90 degrees. If you look at photos of the ferry when it was listing, when it was at about 45 degrees the entire port side of the ship was under water. Even at that point the ship would be in a lot of trouble.

Quote

Could "shifting cargo" REALLY cause a list of that magnitude ? On first glance, that seems to break the laws of physics. I mean... the entire contents of the cargo hold would have to spontaneously plaster itself against one side of the hull ?

Well, the cargo could shift if the ship turned suddenly (as you paraphrase the helmsman saying), the stabilisers didn't operate and the cargo wasn't properly secured. It could also shift if the ship was hit side-on by a large wave. However I don't have any evidence about either such event happening, so I realise I'm speculating.

It's worth noting that the ship is a Roll-On-Roll-Off ferry, and a weak point for these ships is the point where the vehicles enter and leave the ferry. In the case of the MS Estonia, which sank in 1994, the entry point was the ship's bow. I'm unsure where it is on the MS Sewol, but if it's the bow it doesn't seem to be damaged in the photos as far as my non-expert eyes can tell.

Quote

I seem to recall one article that cited passengers as having heard a 'bang'. Well... that could be the ship hitting a rock, or the cargo shifting I guess.

Yes, at the moment the information we have is inconclusive. Perhaps more information will come to light once the crew are interviewed.

Quote

And then there is the sheer speed at which it happened... something like five hours between "the event" and the final sinking ? OK, the Titanic sank in just 2.5 hours, but the gash in its hull was HUGE.

According to Wikipedia, the ship was reported sinking around 9am local time, and had capsized by 11.15am. Given the number of potential entry points for water, it doesn't surprise me.

Quote

Wouldn't such a gash have been visible when the ship turned upside down ? Wouldn't the dozens of divers have noticed it ?

Presumably yes. Presumably this is why the reef collision theory has been discarded.

Edited by Peter B, 19 April 2014 - 04:18 PM.


#14    Peter B

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 04:24 PM

Continuing from above...

Quote

To summarise:
Journalists are interviewing "experts" to produce various theories, but are they realistic ?
  • In regards the 'shifting cargo' theory: why has nobody reported on the cargo manifest to see what was IN the ship ?
  • In regards the 'submerged rock' theory: Why has nobody reported on the precise location of the ship, and discussed this with oceanography experts to see if an underwater collision with a rock is possible in that area ?
  • Why has nobody reported on the location of the ship, and compared that with the standard route to see if the ship was off-course ? I mean... isn't that a BASIC aspect of this event ?
Something is just WRONG with the story as it is being presented.

Some of this information at least is available at Wikipedia's entry. For example its location is given to six decimal places of a degree, and many statements are backed by links to online articles. Perhaps checking them might fill some of these gaps.

Quote

There is an elephant in the room, and everybody is studiously avoiding mentioning it.

Eh? I mentioned it in the first post in this thread.

The reason I now discount the idea of a submarine attack is that a torpedo attack would have (1) caused an almighty explosion and gout of water and debris which would easily be seen by anyone able to see out of the ship, (2) probably broken the ship's back, and (3) created a large hole which would have been visible in photos and to divers.

Check out this footage of a torpedo attack on a decommissioned warship of about 2000 tons (about a third of the Sewol's tonnage): https://www.youtube....h?v=RV8MF-440xg

I think it's unlikely an attack like that happened to the Sewol.

{Apologies for the way this reply appeared. Each time I attempted to reply the system said my opening and closing quotes didn't match.}

Edited by Peter B, 19 April 2014 - 04:27 PM.


#15    and then

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 04:33 PM

I, too thought immediately of the NK angle - and for sound reason since NK routinely causes provocations before, during or after US and SK annual drills.  Anyone who denies this is simply ignorant of history or trying to be a provocateur.  That said, the SK government is probably trying to find ANY other cause since to acknowledge such an attack surely will mean open warfare.

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