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Fulcanelli's "great" mystery


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#16    Leonardo

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 01:07 PM

The pursuit of "esoterica" such as alchemy seems to me to be nothing more than a disassociation with the present in the belief there was a "grand past". For example, take the mixture of symbolism 'alchemists' use - combining ancient Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek and Roman symbology and language (it is invariably couched in latin) - and placing it in a distinctly Rennaisance period context.

If there was any 'truth' in alchemy, and this mixture of symbologies depicts it, the alchemy must be timeless - so where is the modern symbology? Why resort only to symbology from ages past?

Everything about this screams "I don't like the present". In that respect there is a connection between 'esoterica' such as alchemy, and psychology - just not the connection the OP, perhaps, wishes to acknowledge.

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#17    questionmark

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 01:13 PM

View PostLeonardo, on 26 April 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

The pursuit of "esoterica" such as alchemy seems to me to be nothing more than a disassociation with the present in the belief there was a "grand past". For example, take the mixture of symbolism 'alchemists' use - combining ancient Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek and Roman symbology and language (it is invariably couched in latin) - and placing it in a distinctly Rennaisance period context.

If there was any 'truth' in alchemy, and this mixture of symbologies depicts it, the alchemy must be timeless - so where is the modern symbology? Why resort only to symbology from ages past?

Everything about this screams "I don't like the present". In that respect there is a connection between 'esoterica' such as alchemy, and psychology - just not the connection the OP, perhaps, wishes to acknowledge.

There is slightly more to it, you have to remember that the guild of quacks has used "alchemy" for ages to lighten gullible from the burden of their purses. That went to the extent that on the demise of Johann Faust (yep, he existed and was not a pure invention by Goethe...though he called him Heinrich) the count of Zollern had a squadron of soldiers dispatched to impound all books or writings in his possession. Whatever his loot was it was not very impressive, as Faust surely took the quackery of the age to new levels.

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#18    Leonardo

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 01:18 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 26 April 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

There is slightly more to it, you have to remember that the guild of quacks has used "alchemy" for ages to lighten gullible from the burden of their purses. That went to the extent that on the demise of Johann Faust (yep, he existed and was not a pure invention by Goethe...though he called him Heinrich) the count of Zollern had a squadron of soldiers dispatched to impound all books or writings in his possession. Whatever his loot was it was not very impressive, as Faust surely took the quackery of the age to new levels.

I acknowledge it was simply a means to make money by past 'practitioners'. There are still modern flim-flammers relieving the gullible of their pocket-money, to be sure, so perhaps I should have qualified my post by stating the "pursuit of alchemy by the modern, gullible, lay-person" in the first sentence.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

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#19    Jon101

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 02:28 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 26 April 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

Eugène Canseliet? If he was Fulcanelli, Fulcanelli was way below the claims made about him.

Thats the fellow, thanks for that ?mark. Wasn't there also some association with a tomb that supposedly named a date for the apocralypse, or some such?. It said 'Hendaye'  on it?, and this was taken to be 'end day'.


Edit: I am sorry if this sounds incredibly vague, but I'm operating from the barest memory - I was forty the other day, so its all going downhill.
My wife just said 'bloody google it dear, and stop wasting everyones time'.

Edited by Jon101, 26 April 2014 - 02:30 PM.

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#20    questionmark

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 02:30 PM

View PostJon101, on 26 April 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

Thats the fellow, thanks for that ?mark. Wasn't there also some association with a tomb that supposedly named a date for the apocralypse, or some such?. It said 'Hendaye'  on it?, and this was taken to be 'end day'.

Hendaye is the name of a border town on Northern Spain  border with France(in the French version, Hendaya in Spanish) ... so I guess there must be some tombs around there...

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#21    Jon101

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 03:41 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 26 April 2014 - 02:30 PM, said:

Hendaye is the name of a border town on Northern Spain  border with France(in the French version, Hendaya in Spanish) ... so I guess there must be some tombs around there...

Well, I went one better than 'googling' and had an expedition in to attic and found the book. It makes a fairly clear cut case for thinking that a friend of Cansaliet, a chap called Julien Champagne was fulcanelli and the tomb I was thinking of was this http://en.wikipedia....ross_of_Hendaye.

I did have a google though and found this site : http://alchemy1961.t.../fulcanelli.htm. It seems reasonable enough.

Thanks to the Op and to Questionmark for inspiring me into a foray into the nether world of our attic, I have dredged out one of my sons old scalextric tracks to have a ply with, I didn't know they were still up there.

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#22    questionmark

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 03:46 PM

View PostJon101, on 26 April 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Well, I went one better than 'googling' and had an expedition in to attic and found the book. It makes a fairly clear cut case for thinking that a friend of Cansaliet, a chap called Julien Champagne was fulcanelli and the tomb I was thinking of was this http://en.wikipedia....ross_of_Hendaye.

I did have a google though and found this site : http://alchemy1961.t.../fulcanelli.htm. It seems reasonable enough.

Thanks to the Op and to Questionmark for inspiring me into a foray into the nether world of our attic, I have dredged out one of my sons old scalextric tracks to have a ply with, I didn't know they were still up there.

The Great Cross... now we are talking... but, totally disregarding Fulcanelli's unwisdom: That type of cross, in different layouts, are typical of the St. Jacob peregrination trail. There are hundreds of them all through Southern France and Spain.

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#23    Jargogle Ergo

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 04:18 PM

View Postjaylemurph, on 26 April 2014 - 02:07 AM, said:

I'll leave you to your constructed "mysteries" and your disappointment that history isn't as entertaining as you want it to be. No doubt I'll feel foolish when you use Jung and Fucanelli to spin lead into gold.

I think I need to correct your misrepresentation of what I earlier said.

Where did I say that I didn't find history entertaining?

My actual thrust was with academic interpretations of something they (many of them anyway) have zero knowledge or understanding of.

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I mean, I have read his Alchemical Studies, but nothing about it lead me to believe he was writing about anything /historical/ and I missed the part where he was seriously recommending his study to apply to the non-pyschological world. The Rosicrucians, however, repeatedly stressed the importance of their interactions with the physical, political world. So if you're not interested in understanding these people /on their own terms/ and want to play with Jung and his pyschosis, have at!

There you go misrepresenting things again.  

Jung did not write Alchemical Studies as any sort of historical treatise.  It was never his intention to do so.  

But historically speaking, he did own the largest private collection of alchemical texts in the world.  In fact, one text was named after him, namely the Jung Codex discovered at Nag Hammadi.  He was fluent in many languages including Latin and Greek.  There was not one significant treatise he wasn't familiar with, nor one significant alchemist he hadn't studied.  

If you're going to contribute intelligently - and not appear foolish - you need to refresh your knowledge on all of this.

And yes, I'm sorry to say you've done it yet again.   It's a bad habit you've got.

For reasons unknown to me you assume that you intimately know my knowledge base and that, consequently, I know nothing about Rosicrucians or understand them.  I was trained in a Western mystery school for many years, whereas you have not been (that much is crystal clear).  That was almost 40 years ago.  I have also been trained in a number of other disciplines, including Jungian Analytical psychology by a leading English Jungian, now sadly deceased (although I am not an analyst).

You do not appear to know or comprehend that that many students of the mysteries eagerly adopted Jung's work, and not a few trained to become Jungian and/or Adlerian Analysts - because they saw a commonality between the two schools of thought (as do I).  One example of this would be the late Israel Regardie who was trained in the Golden Dawn.  Regardie was much taken by Jung's work and later advocated to his students that each should undergo analysis as a prelude to delving deeper into the mysteries.  He also did what he preached and later in his life received a Master's degree in psychology and trained and practiced as an Adlerian Analyst.  His book,  The Philosopher's Stone, written in 1936-7, was a book about Alchemy written from a Jungian perspective.

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I mean, is there any documentary, period evidence to back up these rather extraordinary architectural claims, or do we all just blithely accept the nameless, unquestionable Fulcanelli just luckily and intuitively divined these lost secrets from looking at cathedrals? Your claims of theoretical hot air stings both ways, here. Fulcanelli is right because... what, he tells you what you want to hear? Always the mark of keen criticism.

Well, you can go to any of the French cathedrals he references and see for yourself.  I doubt you have done so.  I have been to several.  

Also, if you had read the two books under the Fulcanelli name and gathered other information surrounding him and his team, (of which there is a lot written) you'd know the answer to your own question about the writer's insights and understandings.  This would/should lead you to dig back to the 1100's and onwards when the cathedrals were being built and decorated.  You'd be able to discover who mainly paid for the decoration and why.  It is the decoration that is the substantive key here.  A good knowledge of the Qabalah would help too.  

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I myself have divined the secret school of Past Basset Knowledge from examining the patterns of basset hound droolmarks on the sidewalk, which is every bit as compelling as Fulcanelli.

Good for you.  I suspect you've found your investigatory level...

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I assume you'd be interested in my numerous (reasonably priced) e-texts on the subject?

You might want to bear in mind that most of the important knowledge is freely available on the internet these days.  There's no requirement to cross anyones palms with silver.  Attempts to do so is frowned upon and is generally considered to be the mark of the charlatan.

Edited by Jargogle Ergo, 26 April 2014 - 04:20 PM.


#24    Jargogle Ergo

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 04:57 PM

Regarding the cross at Hendaye.  

There was a book written by Jay Weidner and Vincent Bridges called The Mysteries of the Grand Cross of Hendaye: Alchemy and the End of Time, in which the authors sought to explain that the end of world was predicted by Fulcanelli in his 2nd impression book that discussed that relic.  The authors predicted the end was to arrive in 2012 and that they had found the sanctuary too survive the apocalypse.  Readers may make up their own mind about the validity of the authors claims, but we can all attest to the fact the the world continues.  Some might argue that their understanding was slight and/or mistakes about a particular passage written by the author.

On the identity of Fulcanelli.  There are any number of theories about this.  There is a great deal of allegory surrounding this subject.  I suspect that Walter Lang who wrote the Introduction had guessed the truth - that there were several persons who worked together and contributed to the content, but only one actual writer because the style is consistent throughout.

On Leonardo's comments about Esoterica and the desire of looking forward to the past (post No. 16 above), I don't doubt this is true of many dabblers and puffers.  The number of those wishing to eject their spittle and/or ejaculate into a retort which is then mixed with other obtuse ingredients is bewilderingly high.  Others just wish to escape from todays cruel hardships.  Even so, this form of escapism is far more harmless than numerous other contemporary activities I think -- smoking crack cocaine, for example.    

However, for those who engage in a serious investigation, escapism is not at all the case.  In my opinion of course.  Nothing is guaranteed to bring you face to face with the hard surface of this day's reality than to decipher the journey of the alchemists by undertaking that journey.  Other than a tax bill, obviously.


#25    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 26 April 2014 - 10:23 PM

One thing I never understood about Alchemy, if the "introduction to the craft" for want of a better phrase is to transmute lead or another base metal into gold, then why aren't there any unaccountably rich people running around? If we assume most adepts are actually in it for the personal enlightenment there's still going to be the greedy soul here and there and yet ... nada. Barring one whose name escapes me, that is, who according to legend funded all sorts of things despite being dirt poor.

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#26    jaylemurph

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:56 AM

View Postquestionmark, on 26 April 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

There is slightly more to it, you have to remember that the guild of quacks has used "alchemy" for ages to lighten gullible from the burden of their purses. That went to the extent that on the demise of Johann Faust (yep, he existed and was not a pure invention by Goethe...though he called him Heinrich) the count of Zollern had a squadron of soldiers dispatched to impound all books or writings in his possession. Whatever his loot was it was not very impressive, as Faust surely took the quackery of the age to new levels.

Considering there was a rather notable play about Herr Doktor Faustus a good two hundred and twenty-odd years before Goethe, I should say he /wasn't/ Goethe's pure invention! :0)

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Edited by jaylemurph, 27 April 2014 - 04:56 AM.

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#27    jaylemurph

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:59 AM

View PostJargogle Ergo, on 26 April 2014 - 04:18 PM, said:

You might want to bear in mind that most of the important knowledge is freely available on the internet these days.  There's no requirement to cross anyones palms with silver.  Attempts to do so is frowned upon and is generally considered to be the mark of the charlatan.

I don't believe you'll find the slightest bit of evidence I've ever suggested I'm anything other than a charlatan and a fool. Certainly not on this site.

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#28    jaylemurph

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 06:15 AM

View PostSir Wearer of Hats, on 26 April 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

One thing I never understood about Alchemy, if the "introduction to the craft" for want of a better phrase is to transmute lead or another base metal into gold, then why aren't there any unaccountably rich people running around? If we assume most adepts are actually in it for the personal enlightenment there's still going to be the greedy soul here and there and yet ... nada. Barring one whose name escapes me, that is, who according to legend funded all sorts of things despite being dirt poor.

Well -- and I'm sure Ergo will volubly rebut if he disagrees -- at least for the Neo-Platonic strain of alchemy that gave rise to the Rosicrucians and take the works of Marsilio Ficino as its base (maybe at one or two removes), alchemy is symbolic on several different levels simultaneously. At its most basic level, yeah, there's the lead into gold schitck, but the same process also stands as a more figurative, spiritual relationship between the soul and god, the soul and the angels/spirits/demons/daemons, the mind and the soul, the body and the mind, individual and government, and god and the government. If your predictions or experiments with one particular aspect don't work, why then, you were probably just paying attention to the wrong symbolism. In fact, there are several tracts they say if you're just doing it for the gold, the experiments won't work (convenient, yes?).

But really, human greed and stupidity being what it is, does there need to me a rumor of more than one person for whom it works to keep the fire going?

--Jaylemurph

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#29    ChrLzs

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 07:42 AM

Well, all this I-know-more-than-you-do is absolutely riveting stuff, but after reading the thread title and the OP... er .. what is the executive-summarised point of this thread, in words of three syllables or less..?

And was that 'Mystery School' sort of like Hogwart's?

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#30    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 27 April 2014 - 10:12 AM

View PostChrLzs, on 27 April 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

Well, all this I-know-more-than-you-do is absolutely riveting stuff, but after reading the thread title and the OP... er .. what is the executive-summarised point of this thread, in words of three syllables or less..?

And was that 'Mystery School' sort of like Hogwart's?
The usual, academics are hacks because they don't give credence to X, I know better then experts because of Y.
Same old, same old.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.




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