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Cementary Tales


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Poll: Deadly Tales (16 member(s) have cast votes)

Is it healthy for a society to generate the fear of dying?( a natural process?)

  1. Yes? (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. No? (15 votes [93.75%])

    Percentage of vote: 93.75%

  3. Clueless? (1 votes [6.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.25%

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#1    rapture

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 11:45 PM

see the poll


#2    OverSword

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 01:43 AM

I say no and believe that it is a fairly recent development.  It wasn't too long ago when most people were displayed in their living rooms for a few days while people came over to eat and drink and remember the departed.


#3    JJ50

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 10:44 AM

View PostOverSword, on 07 June 2014 - 01:43 AM, said:

I say no and believe that it is a fairly recent development.  It wasn't too long ago when most people were displayed in their living rooms for a few days while people came over to eat and drink and remember the departed.

I have no wish to see a dead relative, even if I was fond of them in life. Once a person is dead I have no interest in the corpse, only in the memories I have of that person. I don't attend funerals if I can possible get out of doing so. The dead person isn't around to care anyway.

Edited by JJ50, 07 June 2014 - 10:44 AM.

“The wise recognise their failings and laugh at their idiosyncrasies” RJG



#4    Mr Walker

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 01:13 PM

I think the question, and some of the answers so far, are confusing/confused. It is not necessarily society which instills a fear of dying. All  humans come to realise the difference between life and death, and most prefer life. Once one has experienced life, then generally death is not seen as being as good as life.  So people try to maintain life as long as possible. This is not just a natural evolutionary drive to keep humanity going but a natural product  of human self awareness. On the other hand our self awareness makes us (as far as I know) the only species on earth to consciously choose suicide when life gets too tough, or due to mental illness. Fear of the process of dying or fear of  a dead person  is different to the fear of death.  
My wife's father died in his sleep while living with us  Both her parents had advanced Alzheimer's and we had been looking after them for about 6 years. We had to prepare his body,  and calI the police and doctor etc to confirm it was a natural death  Nothing to fear or dislike about that, just a part of the caring process.

My wife's mother died siting next to me at our dining table, gazing out at the garden after a long illness. She just quietly stopped breathing  and it was quite hard to be sure she had died. That time there was no need for a doctor or police, because she was in our care to die rather than having to die in a hospital. It took the undertakers a long time to get to us so we left her sitting at the table.  By the time they arrived rigor mortis had begun, which made it a bit hard to get her onto a stretcher and into the hearse, but we managed ( if I had realised how long the undertakers were going to be , I would have laid her down in a straight position.  I agree that once life is gone the body is just organic material which deserves to be treated with respect, but you can no longer hurt the person who once resided in the body I do a lot of funeral orations it is something I can do for the dead and for their relatives. To me the most important part of a funeral is the social gathering, reminiscing and story telling of young and old who knew the deceased through life  to help share memories of the deceased. Most of our family/community funerals have several hundred mourners, with some young ones having considerably more.  And at our age its the most common social occasion where everyone gets together.When I go I wont spend much on a coffin etc but make sure there is a good spread for the mourners to eat and drink.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#5    libstaK

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Posted 07 June 2014 - 01:37 PM

I am not so sure society does this, I think society explores the fear that people have of dying which is inate in most of us but I don't think it is actively encouraging said fear, maybe I'm wrong but I guess it's pretty murky waters, a bit like the proverbial "what came first, the chicken or the egg?" question.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#6    Mr Walker

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 02:11 AM

View PostlibstaK, on 07 June 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

I am not so sure society does this, I think society explores the fear that people have of dying which is inate in most of us but I don't think it is actively encouraging said fear, maybe I'm wrong but I guess it's pretty murky waters, a bit like the proverbial "what came first, the chicken or the egg?" question.
One of the greatest fears of children is separation from their parents. Death is the ultimate separation for a child/human being  from those they love or care about and so, taught or not, children learn not to like death. Fear might be too strong a term for some but few people welcome death unless their llfe is filled with suffering. Hence so many religious beliefs which promise an ultimate  reconnection with other intelligences, from loved ones to god. It is not really death we fear, but separation of ourselves from external consciousnesses  Eg How would people view a promise that you could live for ever, but never have another soul to communicate with.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#7    JJ50

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 11:11 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 08 June 2014 - 02:11 AM, said:

One of the greatest fears of children is separation from their parents. Death is the ultimate separation for a child/human being  from those they love or care about and so, taught or not, children learn not to like death. Fear might be too strong a term for some but few people welcome death unless their llfe is filled with suffering. Hence so many religious beliefs which promise an ultimate  reconnection with other intelligences, from loved ones to god. It is not really death we fear, but separation of ourselves from external consciousnesses  Eg How would people view a promise that you could live for ever, but never have another soul to communicate with.

A young child has a fear of separation from its parents or carers, no doubt. I had no grief when my parents died as they were elderly.

“The wise recognise their failings and laugh at their idiosyncrasies” RJG



#8    Mr Walker

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 03:52 AM

View PostJJ50, on 08 June 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

A young child has a fear of separation from its parents or carers, no doubt. I had no grief when my parents died as they were elderly.

My point was that children learn fear of death from fear of separation from the beings on whom their very life depends,, and for most the fear of separation from other conscious beings is the true aspect of death we fear. It  is not so much loss of consciousness but loss of connection to everything else, which we fear. I did grieve when my father died because it was the result of a botched operation and he shouid not have died.. He was about 82.

I will still grieve when my mother dies, because I still love her more than any one else in the world except my wife. Mum is 91, but  while death is inevitable it is not something to be looked forward to. My grandmother was nearly 100 when she died and she was most reluctant to leave this mortal coil. It is a loss and a disconnection to lose the knowledge,  wisdom and love, given by a parent, no matter what age you or they are.

Edited by Mr Walker, 09 June 2014 - 03:54 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#9    JJ50

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 12:35 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 09 June 2014 - 03:52 AM, said:

My point was that children learn fear of death from fear of separation from the beings on whom their very life depends,, and for most the fear of separation from other conscious beings is the true aspect of death we fear. It  is not so much loss of consciousness but loss of connection to everything else, which we fear. I did grieve when my father died because it was the result of a botched operation and he shouid not have died.. He was about 82.

I will still grieve when my mother dies, because I still love her more than any one else in the world except my wife. Mum is 91, but  while death is inevitable it is not something to be looked forward to. My grandmother was nearly 100 when she died and she was most reluctant to leave this mortal coil. It is a loss and a disconnection to lose the knowledge,  wisdom and love, given by a parent, no matter what age you or they are.

I was very fond of my maternal grandmother, but had no grief when she died at the age of 82, I don't see grief as a productive emotion.

“The wise recognise their failings and laugh at their idiosyncrasies” RJG



#10    Mr Walker

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 01:22 PM

View PostJJ50, on 09 June 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

I was very fond of my maternal grandmother, but had no grief when she died at the age of 82, I don't see grief as a productive emotion.


Interesting.

There are many  emotions I do not see as useful or productive and so do not chose to indulge in them. However, grief has a psychological purpose evolved over human history. It is both a form of catharsis and a way of marking important events via emotional  intensity. It is now known that any event in a life is better and longer remembered where it is accompanied by very intense emotions.   I love the ceremony and social occasion surrounding death,  (and also birth marriage etc) where people get together for celebrating and remembering a life and to maintain social and family networks over time. I do agree, however, that grief which makes a person lose the ability to think or act rationally and logically is useless and dangerous. But then I have never experienced that intensity of grief because I chose not to, and it was never modelled to me or evidenced in my life by others around me..

I guess grief can range from a mild sadness and sense of loss, to a completely debilitating emotional response which makes people incapable of thought .

Edited by Mr Walker, 09 June 2014 - 01:24 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#11    JJ50

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 01:27 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 09 June 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

Interesting.

There are many  emotions I do not see as useful or productive and so do not chose to indulge in them. However, grief has a psychological purpose evolved over human history. It is both a form of catharsis and a way of marking important events via emotional  intensity. It is now known that any event in a life is better and longer remembered where it is accompanied by very intense emotions.   I love the ceremony and social occasion surrounding death,  (and also birth marriage etc) where people get together for celebrating and remembering a life and to maintain social and family networks over time. I do agree, however, that grief which makes a person lose the ability to think or act rationally and logically is useless and dangerous. But then I have never experienced that intensity of grief because I chose not to, and it was never modelled to me or evidenced in my life by others around me..

When my mother died last year my only feeling was relief. I didn't bother to attend her funeral as there was little point, and it would have been very inconvenient for me to do so as I am my disabled husband's carer.

“The wise recognise their failings and laugh at their idiosyncrasies” RJG



#12    Mr Walker

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 10:26 AM

View PostJJ50, on 09 June 2014 - 01:27 PM, said:

When my mother died last year my only feeling was relief. I didn't bother to attend her funeral as there was little point, and it would have been very inconvenient for me to do so as I am my disabled husband's carer.

I have to refrain from comment on this, because it legitimately reflects your world view, and yet   it is incomprehensible, and almost unbelievable to me,  because I  live in a "different world."

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#13    JJ50

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 05:42 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 10 June 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

I have to refrain from comment on this, because it legitimately reflects your world view, and yet   it is incomprehensible, and almost unbelievable to me,  because I  live in a "different world."

If you had known my mother you might have felt the same!

“The wise recognise their failings and laugh at their idiosyncrasies” RJG



#14    Mr Walker

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:53 PM

View PostJJ50, on 10 June 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

If you had known my mother you might have felt the same!
That was my point, but I cannot begin to imagine me having that sort of relationship with a mother (or a mother in law) Also, to me the nature of another person is irrelevant. I am responsible for how I see and treat every one I know, not they. I have duties and responsibilities which surpass how I might feel for, or about, another person. For example if my mother had abandoned me as a young child that does not affect my responsibility to her if she needed me in life or old age. Her abandonment is for her to deal with and be responsible for, I am only responsible for how I treat her, and that responsibility is not diminished by how she treated me. In my ethical system, how I treat others is a reflection of who and what I am as a human being, and is not dependent on how they treat me. In my case  a compounding issue is that my mother is a link to a family traced back over a thousand years, and extended across the world. To break that link  would shatter my psychological connection to my sense of place and space,  family and community, and my relationship to the world.

Edited by Mr Walker, 10 June 2014 - 11:58 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#15    JJ50

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 07:55 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 10 June 2014 - 11:53 PM, said:

That was my point, but I cannot begin to imagine me having that sort of relationship with a mother (or a mother in law) Also, to me the nature of another person is irrelevant. I am responsible for how I see and treat every one I know, not they. I have duties and responsibilities which surpass how I might feel for, or about, another person. For example if my mother had abandoned me as a young child that does not affect my responsibility to her if she needed me in life or old age. Her abandonment is for her to deal with and be responsible for, I am only responsible for how I treat her, and that responsibility is not diminished by how she treated me. In my ethical system, how I treat others is a reflection of who and what I am as a human being, and is not dependent on how they treat me. In my case  a compounding issue is that my mother is a link to a family traced back over a thousand years, and extended across the world. To break that link  would shatter my psychological connection to my sense of place and space,  family and community, and my relationship to the world.

I am of the opinion that children don't have a responsibility to their parents, but parents have  a responsibility to their children as they brought them into this world. No one asks to be born. My siblings and I ensured our mother wanted for nothing, even though we didn't like her much, and it was a HUGE relief when she died. I see nothing wrong with feeling like that as we had good reason to do so! I am fortunate to have an excellent relationship with our children, and I do what I can for them.

“The wise recognise their failings and laugh at their idiosyncrasies” RJG






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