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Climate change deniers are ignoring science

barack obama climate change deniers angel stadium global warming

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#16    Oniomancer

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Posted 16 June 2014 - 01:33 AM

Very odd that the first thread I find on this was only posted today, because today I had an interesting experience that prompted me to look for a thread in which to relate it.
Today, I was out hitting some garage sales that I'd missed yesterday. one of which turned out to be held by a guy to used to work on my mother's car. We fell to chatting and in the course of conversation I made the mistake of mentioning global warming,  jokingly mind you. Well, this guy immediately responded that global warming wasn't real. Knowing that I can't argue these kind of things face to face, I proceeded to deflect as best I could while he presented his point of view
What does the government do, he said, when they want people to do things? Manipulate the facts . He knew better because he'd talked to this other guy , from NYC I think he said, who was an expert. According to this this expert and his buddies, there was no global warming. What was happening instead was the earth was tilting on it's axis. (for a moment I thought sure he was talking about a pole shift.) It wasn't going to happen overnight or even in our lifetimes probably but it would keep tilting until eventually New York was like Florida and Florida was like New York.
And they should know, my informant assured me in so many words, because they were alchemists...

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#17    Doug1o29

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 08:28 PM

View Poststevewinn, on 15 June 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

where does China rank when emissions are calculated by country - compared to per capita. what is the difference, and do the same for Australia. what happens?
Glad you brought up China.  By exporting its manufac6turing to China, the US also exports its pollution and greenhouse emissions.  So how do we get China to reduce its pollution?  Quit buying products from them.  Quite simple, really.
Doug

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Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#18    docyabut2

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Posted 17 June 2014 - 09:36 PM

View PostStill Waters, on 15 June 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

President Barack Obama said denying climate change is like arguing that the moon is made of cheese, as he issued a call for action on global warming to Saturday's graduates of the University of California, Irvine.

Obama told the tens of thousands gathered at Angel Stadium that Congress "is full of folks who stubbornly and automatically reject the scientific evidence" and say climate change is a hoax or fad, while others avoid the question.

http://www.telegraph...ng-science.html

Climate change is natural and  as nothing to do with global warming or what man is doing, the earth just has its cycles.   Global warming was around before man ever existed


#19    Br Cornelius

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 07:40 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 17 June 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

Climate change is natural and  as nothing to do with global warming or what man is doing, the earth just has its cycles.   Global warming was around before man ever existed
Care to show what natural cycle is causing it, or is it one of those magic cycles that has appeared out of nowhere.
What you just said is easy to say and easy to avoid supplying "any" supporting evidence and that is why it is complete and utter bull****.

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#20    Uncle Sam

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 03:16 PM

There are so many unknown factors in the Global Warming debate, that I just leave it alone instead of talk about it. I like knowing everything I can about an subject before I thrust myself head long into the debate, but this is one that will make both parties look stupid. Interestingly there is data to back up that the earth has wild swings in temps, it is called Milankovitch cycles which rely around the shifting of the poles. You would think if the Earth's shift poles, the Ice Caps would melt and relocate to an different part of the world where the new poles are. It would be slow and take thousands of years.

For this to happen, you would think the Earth would have to heat up first before all that ice moves to another location... we are due another ice age which has been stated by Scientists over and over. I just think we are accelerating the melting of the ice and displacement of large bodies of water during this transition period which can have devastating effects to local eco systems on islands. This is an theory, but it isn't something you should take to heart. No one knows for sure if this is really global warming or just some pompous being spouted out by political parties. I find my theory more plausible than humans being the sole contributor of global warming and changing of the landscape. We are not that powerful of species that we can change the whole dynamic of the planet by ourselves.

Edited by Uncle Sam, 18 June 2014 - 03:17 PM.

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#21    ninjadude

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 12:11 AM

View PostUncle Sam, on 18 June 2014 - 03:16 PM, said:

, it is called Milankovitch cycles

No. climate scientists are well aware of these and many more that you are not. The climate is still being forced over and above all known factors. By a large margin.

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#22    dr no

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 06:50 AM

I don't understand why this subject has become a left or right debate.


#23    Br Cornelius

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 07:43 AM

Because the right made it so.

Br Cornelius

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#24    Doug1o29

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 01:32 PM

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View Postdocyabut2, on 17 June 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

Climate change is natural and  as nothing to do with global warming or what man is doing, the earth just has its cycles.   Global warming was around before man ever existed
Consider:  The last time Wichita, Kansas saw temperatures of 40 degrees (F.) below zero was in February 1886.  The last time it saw 30 degrees below zero was in January 1931.  The last time it saw 20 degrees below zero was in January 1951.  And the last time it saw 10 degrees below zero was about three years ago.  Why did those low temps occur during the winter?  Because there's a natural cycle - the earth's orbit interacting with the tilt of its axis - that controls when the lows happen.  Climate changes in sync with the day of the year.  But something else is going on or those low temps wouldn't be increasing.  It's that something else that properly bears the name "climate change."  The reccuring changes you see over years such as the change in the seasons, or over decades, such as the solar cycle are going to happen again and again.  That eliminates them from the heading of "climate change."  Only a permanent shift qualifies for the title of "climate change."

That's my job:  analyzing sets of numbers, mostly time-series, to determine what is happening.  Yes, there are natural changes evident in the numbers I work with.  These mostly represent "steady-state" conditions - the climate varying within normal parameters.  But one pattern keeps coming through the data:  a logarithmic curve.  Whether I measure tree ring thicknesses, or stream flows, or storm frequencies, or weather station readings, there is this logarithmic curve.

Logarithmic curves are indicative of permanent, increasing change.  The curve might be negative - a variable getting closer and closer to, but never quite reaching, some minimum value, such as stream flows in an increasingly dry environment.  Or, it might be doing the same thing with some maximum value.  Or, it might be accelerating without limit, such as tree ring widths responding to increasing CO2 levels or temperatures.  The common element is:  permanent change.  That's what I'm seeing in all sorts of natural systems.


Is this permanent change due to human causes?  The default answer is "yes."  Why default?  Because we can think of a human cause - release of carbon to the atmosphere.  But we can't think of a natural one.  Not even the most-ardent deniers have proposed an alternative that has stood for more than a few months in the face of new evidence.  If you are going to say that climate is not changing, then you need a dataset that shows that.  All of the global temperature data sets show the world getting warmer - no exceptions.  These aren't climate models.  They are averages of day-to-day weather logs kept by a network of something like 10,000 different observers.  These are not dire predictions of some future event, but records of what has already happened.

Could these temperature records be some kind of conspiracy to show the world getting warmer?  James Inhofe - the Senator from Oklahoma - says there is.  I don't know how he thinks we could keep a network of 10,000 observers working for more than a century without somebody spilling the beans.  But if he's right, the CIA needs to take some lessons from the climatologists.  Just one thing about James Inhofe -  he's a lawyer.  Can you imagine what the legal system would be like with me running the Department of Justice?  The same thing happens when lawyers get involved in climate issues.  Inhofe didn't cause "climategate," but he did a lot to disseminate the myth.

That the climate is getting warmer is well-established fact.  That carbon retains heat in the atmosphere has been known for more than a century.  That the world has enough fossil fuel reserves to warm the planet to near the boiling point if they are all burned, is also well-known and established.  The evidence is in:  The world is getting warmer and we are the cause.  Now:  what are we going to do about it?
Doug

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Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#25    Myles

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 01:34 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 15 June 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

per capita comparisons favour poorer countries since they always have lower per capita emissions. This is the point - only by offering equity to every citizen of the world to make a fair and equal contribution to the overall emissions we are allowed can we hope to lower overall emissions whilst simultaneously allowing development in the poorest countries.

Br Cornelius
I think the emissions per country is more important in this case because laws are made for the country not per capita.   I think the higher emitting countries should pass the laws first.    But I also think that these laws should not cripple an economy.


#26    Doug1o29

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 03:11 PM

View PostMyles, on 24 June 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

I think the emissions per country is more important in this case because laws are made for the country not per capita.   I think the higher emitting countries should pass the laws first. But I also think that these laws should not cripple an economy.
Agreed.

That conversion would necessarily cripple an economy is Koch Industries hype.  With a few billion dollars to throw around you can put out all sorts of stuff and convince nearly anybody of anything.  You could even buy the US government!

Wind is cheaper than all other forms of electricity except gas-fired turbines and it is neck-and-neck with those.  Conservation SAVES money by reducing use of expensive fuels.

The deniers like to point out that solar photo-electric systems are expensive - they are.  But they forget to mention that a solar-powered steam engine is almost as cheap as wind - one of those was displayed at the 1876 Paris Exposition.  The technology exists and much of it has existed for a very long time.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#27    We are lizard people

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Posted 24 June 2014 - 10:25 PM

The reason I'm not a believer is simple:

The "Solution" to Man-Made Global Warming just so happens to be using the threat of imprisonment or violence to take money from one group of people and to give this money to another group of people who did nothing to earn that money.

That is eerily similar to the solution to every other crisis that happens to be popular with the world's lefties.

What say you, Komrade?


#28    Br Cornelius

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:09 AM

View PostWe are lizard people, on 24 June 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:

The reason I'm not a believer is simple:

The "Solution" to Man-Made Global Warming just so happens to be using the threat of imprisonment or violence to take money from one group of people and to give this money to another group of people who did nothing to earn that money.

That is eerily similar to the solution to every other crisis that happens to be popular with the world's lefties.

What say you, Komrade?
There are any number of viable solutions. You seem to have picked the very one the right wing conspiracy theorists use to demonize the science. What a coincidence.

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson

#29    docyabut2

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:48 AM

View PostDoug1o29, on 19 June 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:


Is this permanent change due to human causes?  The default answer is "yes."  Why default?  Because we can think of a human cause - release of carbon to the atmosphere.  But we can't think of a natural one

Doug


The Earth heats up because the Cord of the Earth heats up.There are active under ground volcanos all over the world in the Antarctica, Greenland,  ect .


#30    Emma_Acid

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:00 AM

View PostWe are lizard people, on 24 June 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:

The reason I'm not a believer is simple:

The "Solution" to Man-Made Global Warming just so happens to be using the threat of imprisonment or violence to take money from one group of people and to give this money to another group of people who did nothing to earn that money.

You don't "believe" in something because of the scaremongering solutions you've heard through the right wing media? Do you know how little sense this makes?

I don't "believe" in global warming because I like the solution. I "believe" in it because a) that is where the evidence points and B) I think it's too important not to take action on - whether we're right or not.

"Science is the least subjective form of deduction" ~ A. Mulder




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