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Repentance


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#1    ~TheBigK~

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 07:57 PM

Apologies if this has been discussed before but I couldn't find anything on it when I searched. Anyway, I recently witnessed a debate sparked by this image:

Posted Image

So basically it's saying that because serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer repented and asked for forgiveness, he's in heaven while Carl Sagan who is generally accepted as a good and incredibly influential person ended up in hell because he's an atheist.

There are a lot of issues I have with this but there was one comment in particular I found troubling, someone said "if there's hope that someone like Dahmer could receive pardoning from God then I'm glad because that means there's hope for me." To me that's essentially saying well hey if this horrible human being can get into heaven then I'm cool with that cause it means I can too, and that just seems like an awful reason to support such a belief. What is the point of listing off sins you should never commit, when you can just accept God and have them all washed away in the end? It also brings up the question how do we know a criminal is sincere and not just repenting to look good for the court/public? Does God know if the person has genuine remorse or desire to be good? Where is the line between blind faith and taking responsibility for your own actions? I think that forgiveness is generally a good thing in principal but in cases like this it just seems counterproductive and illogical.

All of that being said I know there are some religious people who don't support this and prefer to believe God would judge based on your character instead of whether or not you believe. Which I think is great. I guess I'm just curious to hear everyone's opinions on this especially if you're religious. If you are particularly religious are you comfortable with this concept and do you support it?

Posted Image

#2    JimmyK

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 08:13 PM

Greetings,

I accept the fact that judgement belongs to God. I do believe in The Bible and accept it as The Word of God. I do not find that it teaches that all one must do is believe and in fact teaches that belief alone is dead.

The above picture does not represent Christian logic.

I hope this helps.

Regards

JimmyK


#3    and then

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 08:43 PM

View PostJimmyK, on 18 June 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

Greetings,

I accept the fact that judgement belongs to God. I do believe in The Bible and accept it as The Word of God. I do not find that it teaches that all one must do is believe and in fact teaches that belief alone is dead.

The above picture does not represent Christian logic.

I hope this helps.

Regards

JimmyK
I agree up to a point.  But how does one determine how "much" it requires to be found worthy?  A little?  Everything?  Or does the word tell us that no one is righteous and works are never enough to make us so?  No man can really know the heart of another.  As to deciding who gets "in", it isn't our choice so we have to decide if we want it enough to believe and to do (as best we are able) his will.

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#4    ~TheBigK~

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 09:01 PM

View PostJimmyK, on 18 June 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

Greetings,

I accept the fact that judgement belongs to God. I do believe in The Bible and accept it as The Word of God. I do not find that it teaches that all one must do is believe and in fact teaches that belief alone is dead.

The above picture does not represent Christian logic.

I hope this helps.

Regards

JimmyK

Okay well I recognize that there are other requirements besides believing, such as baptism and repenting. But all you have to do to not get into heaven is be a non-believer. So should someone like Dahmer get into heaven simply because he repented? If that's not Christian logic what would you consider it to be in regards to repentance? I can't pretend to know everything about the bible so I'm just genuinely curious.

Posted Image

#5    JimmyK

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 09:04 PM

View Postand then, on 18 June 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

I agree up to a point.  But how does one determine how "much" it requires to be found worthy?  A little?  Everything?  Or does the word tell us that no one is righteous and works are never enough to make us so?  No man can really know the heart of another.  As to deciding who gets "in", it isn't our choice so we have to decide if we want it enough to believe and to do (as best we are able) his will.

Greetings,

"How much it requires to be found worthy" is an interesting question. The how much is answered with the blood of Christ. The Word in fact does teach us that there is none that is righteous and that all have sinned. Therefore it is nessesary for the unworthy (man) to come into contact with the worthy (the blood of Christ.)

I believe the Word teaches us how and when that is accomplished. Hearing The Word, believing it, confessing Christ and being baptized for the remission of sins are all scriptual requirements and the combination of all is the act of turning to God. Therein one comes in contact with the blood and is risen to walk in newness of life.

From there we are told to maintain fellowship one with the other by walking in The Light and in so doing the blood of Christ continuously cleanses us from all sin.

Hope this helps and thanks for your kind response.

Regards

JimmyK


#6    JimmyK

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 09:11 PM

View Post~TheBigK~, on 18 June 2014 - 09:01 PM, said:

Okay well I recognize that there are other requirements besides believing, such as baptism and repenting. But all you have to do to not get into heaven is be a non-believer. So should someone like Dahmer get into heaven simply because he repented? If that's not Christian logic what would you consider it to be in regards to repentance? I can't pretend to know everything about the bible so I'm just genuinely curious.

Greetings,

I cannot speak to the mans standing before God. That belongs to God alone. The question, "...So should someone like Dahmer get into heaven simply because he repented.." is not for me to say. If the man died "In Christ" then it is Christ that God will look at not the man.

I am getting the grandkids ready for VBS so I will be back later if you would like further clarification.

Thanks for your kindness!

JimmyK


#7    eight bits

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 09:48 PM

Wrong caption.

Presumably by "Christian Logic" you meant "Protestant Logic," and even then, not all Protestants would agree that non-believers end up in hell (umm, not all Protestants believe that there is any hell to end up in). I've posted this clip before.

>

Graham and Schuller were criticized by a certain type of Protestant for what they said there. Nevertheless, Graham and Schuller were undoubtedly prominent Protestant spokespeople, and this is what they preached.

The majority of Christians aren't even Protestants. Roman Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and adherents of churshes in communion with one or more of those three have far more members than the Protestant denominations. The argument you criticize has some force against hundreds of millions of people, but for most Christians, it's just a straw man.

Conclude: effective, or even honest, counterapologetics needs  more than a snarky  demotivational poster.

Posted Image

#8    ~TheBigK~

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Posted 18 June 2014 - 10:03 PM

View Posteight bits, on 18 June 2014 - 09:48 PM, said:

Wrong caption.

Presumably by "Christian Logic" you meant "Protestant Logic," and even then, not all Protestants would agree that non-believers end up in hell (umm, not all Protestants believe that there is any hell to end up in). I've posted this clip before.

>

Graham and Schuller were criticized by a certain type of Protestant for what they said there. Nevertheless, Graham and Schuller were undoubtedly prominent Protestant spokespeople, and this is what they preached.

The majority of Christians aren't even Protestants. Roman Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and adherents of churshes in communion with one or more of those three have far more members than the Protestant denominations. The argument you criticize has some force against hundreds of millions of people, but for most Christians, it's just a straw man.

Conclude: effective, or even honest, counterapologetics needs  more than a snarky  demotivational poster.

I'm not the one who made that photo. Trust me I'm not a proponent of using memes or demotivational posters as a means of getting my point across, I merely posted it here to show you guys it was where the debate stemmed from. As I said, I realize that not all Christians have that belief system and I don't know everything about the different beliefs which is why I posted this. I want to know what different Christians/non-Christians think about this.

Posted Image

#9    Omnaka

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 06:01 AM

God loves unconditionaly. You will judge your self,  make your own hell etc,.
If you dont forgive your self, you won't believe God does either. And with freewill in spirit, you will separate your self from unconditional love. God does not judge.


#10    davros of skaro

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 10:34 AM

The wide range of responses you will get is very telling.

Even though I am not a believer, I see it like this.

John 3:18

New International Version (NIV)

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of Godís one and only Son.

Here are some online tools.

http://www.biblegateway.com/

http://skepticsannot...e.com/index.htm

Edited by davros of skaro, 19 June 2014 - 10:36 AM.

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#11    JJ50

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 01:57 PM

View Post~TheBigK~, on 18 June 2014 - 07:57 PM, said:

Apologies if this has been discussed before but I couldn't find anything on it when I searched. Anyway, I recently witnessed a debate sparked by this image:

Posted Image

So basically it's saying that because serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer repented and asked for forgiveness, he's in heaven while Carl Sagan who is generally accepted as a good and incredibly influential person ended up in hell because he's an atheist.

There are a lot of issues I have with this but there was one comment in particular I found troubling, someone said "if there's hope that someone like Dahmer could receive pardoning from God then I'm glad because that means there's hope for me." To me that's essentially saying well hey if this horrible human being can get into heaven then I'm cool with that cause it means I can too, and that just seems like an awful reason to support such a belief. What is the point of listing off sins you should never commit, when you can just accept God and have them all washed away in the end? It also brings up the question how do we know a criminal is sincere and not just repenting to look good for the court/public? Does God know if the person has genuine remorse or desire to be good? Where is the line between blind faith and taking responsibility for your own actions? I think that forgiveness is generally a good thing in principal but in cases like this it just seems counterproductive and illogical.

All of that being said I know there are some religious people who don't support this and prefer to believe God would judge based on your character instead of whether or not you believe. Which I think is great. I guess I'm just curious to hear everyone's opinions on this especially if you're religious. If you are particularly religious are you comfortable with this concept and do you support it?

The totally crazy logic of the 'you must be 'saved' or go to hell' buffoons, is beyond me! :td:

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#12    AZDZ

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 03:59 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 19 June 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:



Even though I am not a believer, I see it like this.

John 3:18

New International Version (NIV)

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

That one verse is just that, only one verse. Everything the Bible says concerning the topic must be taken into account. to form a more complete picture.  

By his words it would seem that Sagan wasn't a believer but no one knows what he thought in his heart except the Judge of  hearts. He may have lived a perfect life secretly believing in the LORD despite what he said with his lips.

One thing often overlooked about God is His claim to be a perfect Judge, nobody ever gets anything over on him no matter how clever they think they are. Even you, Davros, despite your lack of faith in the LORD, you may be forgiven because you are only responding in a logical way to the evidence He has allowed us to have. You don't think God knows how difficult He has made it for you to accept Him? You are serving Him in exactly the way he intended you to.

So long as [you or] Sagan never blasphemed (Bible's definition, not mans) the Holy Spirit then there is no reason not to believe he [nor you] was [will be] saved.

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#13    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 04:34 PM

View Posteight bits, on 18 June 2014 - 09:48 PM, said:

The argument you criticize has some force against hundreds of millions of people, but for most Christians, it's just a straw man.

Conclude: effective, or even honest, counterapologetics needs  more than a snarky  demotivational poster.

Sure, but if counterapologetics are to be ineffective or less than honest merely because maybe some/most Christians don't actually argue the particular apologetic being countered, then there are very few possible honest counterapologetics possible, short of lots of qualification that still may not be comprehensive enough, because of the incredible range of Christian beliefs.  I would think hundreds of millions of believers would pretty much establish that this logic is not a fringe belief.  I guess the title of the poster could have instead said "Christian Logic (for those hundreds of millions of Christians who believe a stereotypical hell exists and believe the only way to salvation is by accepting Jesus as your personal savior and that all those who do go to heaven and all those who do not go to hell)"; get's a little wordy though.

To me, where the poster fails is in the indication that Sagan is in hell.  One of my favorite verses in the Bible is Romans 9:18: "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.", which to me says any argument that so and so is in hell (or heaven) can't really be argued with much to support it.

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#14    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 04:38 PM

View PostAZDZ, on 19 June 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

So long as [you or] Sagan never blasphemed (Bible's definition, not mans) the Holy Spirit then there is no reason not to believe he [nor you] was [will be] saved.

My understanding is that it is not even possible for non-believers to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, only believers.  (using 'blasphemy' as I maybe wrongly understand it from the Bible, not how we use 'blasphemy' on earth, where we do use it to cover any denial of something someone else finds sacred).

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#15    ~TheBigK~

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Posted 19 June 2014 - 04:49 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 19 June 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

The wide range of responses you will get is very telling.

Even though I am not a believer, I see it like this.

John 3:18

New International Version (NIV)

18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Here are some online tools.

http://www.biblegateway.com/

http://skepticsannot...e.com/index.htm

Thanks for the links!

Yeah the answers I've gotten here and elsewhere have been pretty different. John 3:18 is how I've been seeing it as well but as AZDZ said, that's only one and I've been seeing many. And most of those happen to be fairly contradictory such as:

JO1 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

1 John 3:7: Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous
Romans 3:10: As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;

I figured the most common response I would get would be that of "it's not our place to question God" which is fine as someones personal belief, but that doesn't work for me.

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