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Isis seizes Saddam's chemical weapons cache


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#1    Socio

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 12:04 AM

http://www.telegraph...to-go-live.html

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17.09 Chemical weapons produced at the Al Muthanna facility, which Isis today seized, are believed to have included mustard gas, Sarin, Tabun, and VX.

Why weren't these WMDs destroyed a long time ago?


#2    shrooma

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 12:07 AM

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what, those WMD's that didn't exist....?
.


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#3    DeWitz

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 12:16 AM

The poison gas was bartered to Iraq by Reagan during the '80's Iran-Iraq war as a hedge against Iran. It is a good question why these particular weapons were not destroyed during the US occupation. The alleged WMD touted by Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld referred to purported nukes and bio-weapons which were never uncovered (rumored by some to have been transferred to Syria or elsewhere before the invasion, but this was never proven). Remember "yellowcake!" and "We're not gonna wait until there's a mushroom cloud. . ."

Edited by DeWitz, 20 June 2014 - 12:18 AM.

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#4    libstaK

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 12:16 AM

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Um ... the facility is not functioning and full of disused, dismantled and degenerated residuals.

http://www.telegraph...ex-in-Iraq.html

From the article;

“The only people who would likely be harmed by these chemical materials would be the people who tried to use or move them,” the military officer said.

Hush .... nobody tell ISIS that mmmkay?

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#5    Yamato

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:34 AM

View Postshrooma, on 20 June 2014 - 12:07 AM, said:

what, those WMD's that didn't exist....?
.
Nope, it's the WMDs that "did".  You know, lame excuses to start another war over.

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#6    Earl.Of.Trumps

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 01:51 AM

Some people in here are silly enough to believe the invasion of Iraq was to take WoMD away from Saddam.

tee-hee, silly wabbits!

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#7    OverSword

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 02:46 AM

View PostYamato, on 20 June 2014 - 01:34 AM, said:

Nope, it's the WMDs that "did".  You know, lame excuses to start another war over.
this.  It's their back door to Syria.


#8    bubblykiss

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 10:25 AM

View PostEarl.Of.Trumps, on 20 June 2014 - 01:51 AM, said:

Some people in here are silly enough to believe the invasion of Iraq was to take WoMD away from Saddam.

tee-hee, silly wabbits!


And here I was thinking it was a petty revenege mission designed to be a quick and cheap victory for a president that was destined to be an overwhelming failure.

That is unless he picked a war with a small nation that could be beatene with great ease.

After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military.

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#9    and then

and then

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 03:55 PM

View Postbubblykiss, on 20 June 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

And here I was thinking it was a petty revenege mission designed to be a quick and cheap victory for a president that was destined to be an overwhelming failure.

That is unless he picked a war with a small nation that could be beatene with great ease.
The nation WAS beaten with ease. The insane ideology will never be defeated because you can't save people from stupid or mean.  And cynical barbs about a failed (stupid) policy in Iraq might feel good to beat people over the head with, but the problems over there are REAL and eventually will be dealt with or we will feel their bite here at home again.  I have no idea how to deal with them other than to strike where they gather and weaken them as they try to build strength. Invading the country was useless - breaking their stuff can be done cheaper and with less risk.

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#10    jeem

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 04:02 PM

My my so that WMD story was true after all and so Iraq invasion was right.
lolzzzzzzzzzzzz :w00t: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:


#11    and then

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 04:55 PM

https://encrypted-tb...Yecc0Nr7mcoCO1a
Yeah!  It's not like a dictator in the region would ever USE chemical weapons...

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#12    RavenHawk

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 06:33 PM

View PostDeWitz, on 20 June 2014 - 12:16 AM, said:

The poison gas was bartered to Iraq by Reagan during the '80's Iran-Iraq war as a hedge against Iran.
Where it came from doesn’t really matter.  Arms are a commodity bought and sold on the market.  But we did support Saddam in 1980, looking for a counter to Iran.  It was a popular move; I even have a board game called “Oil War” in which Iraq was basically the hero.  It didn’t take long to discover Saddam’s character at which point we pulled that support.  France continued their relationship eventually leading to building a nuclear power plant which could be used to produce U235.  Israel later took this reactor out.  Saddam still explored all sorts of WMD, how to acquire them, and how to develop them.  Each program was transient so that Israel or any other group couldn’t easily take them out.

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It is a good question why these particular weapons were not destroyed during the US occupation.
Because it was determined that the condition of this site is deteriorating and would pose a danger to anyone messing with it.  This is from the view point of organizations that spend great expense at maintaining safety procedures for workers and the environment.  Plan Work, Evaluate Risk, Implement Controls, Perform Work, and Improve Process which oddly enough is part of “Integrated Safety Information System”.  How many other sites are in a state of deterioration?  

I’m sure that ISIS has personnel that will enter the site and mine what they can as safely as possible.  I hope that people don’t think that ISIS is a mob of ignorant ragheads?  These people are highly intelligent and educated and very dedicated and motivated.  They are well trained and well lead probably backed by Saudi Arabia.  And probably have Pakistani weapon scientists on their payroll.

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The alleged WMD touted by Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld referred to purported nukes and bio-weapons which were never uncovered (rumored by some to have been transferred to Syria or elsewhere before the invasion, but this was never proven).
Just as this chem. stockpile was never really revealed, the location of weapon systems that made it to Lebanon are known at the state level but not to the general public.  The revised 2005 NIE (you do know what this is?) didn’t deny the existence of WMD, it only cut back on how extensive it was.  Saddam’s programs were transient which requires a different way of thinking about them.  But most people tend to forget that as long as Saddam was in power, these transient programs would continue and he would have assistance from nations like France.  France was heavily into the idea of using Iraq to counter Iran.  We really didn’t need another Pakistan/India, do we?  And much less stable.

Quote

Remember "yellowcake!"
Clearly!  500 tons was found.  If I remember correctly, you just need about 10 tons of yellowcake (60kg U235) to make a 20kt yield bomb??  The hard part is weapons grade enrichment.  It could take up to a year to enrich enough yellowcake to make a bomb.  Since his reactor had been destroyed, Saddam was working on acquiring centrifuges for enrichment.  He was trying to find poor man techniques to enrich.  Now we say that he was perhaps a decade behind the Iranians.  The latest NIE on Iran stated that they did stop their program in 2003 but has since restarted it.

The bottom line here is that I think that ISIS is perhaps the manifestation of Sunni fear against Iran and that the ultimate goal is to attack and take out the theocracy in Tehran.  And I think a deal has already been made with Israel to either help or stay out.  I think we should do the same.  I can’t stand that thought because of the sacrifice we made but that is on Obama.  I think he’ll be brought up on charges of treason among others when he is out of office, if he survives.  We might find ourselves as the catalyst that kicked started the system (Islam) into self regulation.  Hopefully this will also lead to reforms in the faith.  If this is so, then we need to take steps to build bridges.  But we may never know their final goal is until it’s too late.

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#13    DeWitz

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 08:28 PM

@RavenHawk--National Intelligence Estimates have not always been so intelligent. I respect your point of view, but if you think Obama should be tried for treason, you might consider whether W. and Cheney (maybe Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz) should be tried in The Hague for war crimes. I have never heard anything about 500 tons of yellowcake; only the vial Colin Powell presented to the UN in his self-admittedly misleading speech.

I can't imagine that any form of war, combat or armed intervention can be a catalyst or "lead to reforms in the (Islamic) faith," as you suggest. That seems like a curious form of international idealism not likely to bear fruit with such fanatical believers.

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#14    Earl.Of.Trumps

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 12:33 AM

View Postbubblykiss, on 20 June 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

And here I was thinking it was a petty revenege mission designed to be a quick and cheap victory for a president that was destined to be an overwhelming failure.

That is unless he picked a war with a small nation that could be beatene with great ease.


Personally, I like the "Profit" motive for the military industrial complex, but I admit to being a biased hippie from the Vietnam war era.

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#15    Earl.Of.Trumps

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 12:38 AM

View Postand then, on 20 June 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

The nation WAS beaten with ease. The insane ideology will never be defeated because you can't save people from stupid or mean.  And cynical barbs about a failed (stupid) policy in Iraq might feel good to beat people over the head with, but the problems over there are REAL and eventually will be dealt with or we will feel their bite here at home again.  I have no idea how to deal with them other than to strike where they gather and weaken them as they try to build strength. Invading the country was useless - breaking their stuff can be done cheaper and with less risk.



Well, it is obvious to me - and maybe most, we can crush them militarily but we cannot change their mind.

They want us OUT of their region of the world, because contrary to American popular opinion, we are NOT there to save those people, we are not there to help those people, we are there to secure the safety and betterment of Israel and they know it.

This, of course, means an endless cascading of strife upon innocent Muslims in the region, particularly the Pals

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