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Sin and Creation


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#1    Rlyeh

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 04:19 PM

Many Christians do not believe the Creation myth, as an ex-Christian/creationist I wonder what is the explanation of humanity's fundamental flaw? Both the OT and NT imply human nature is wicked, more than just freewill they are incapable of following God's laws.
Did God even create humans at all?

Edited by Rlyeh, 25 June 2014 - 04:19 PM.


#2    and then

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 04:26 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 25 June 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

Many Christians do not believe the Creation myth, as an ex-Christian/creationist I wonder what is the explanation of humanity's fundamental flaw? Both the OT and NT imply human nature is wicked, more than just freewill they are incapable of following God's laws.
Did God even create humans at all?
It's a very good question.  I have no idea the answer but I've often wondered if we were intentionally created with such a flaw so that we could grow. If we were created perfectly then we would not be dynamic would we?  It seems there has to be tension (if that's the right word) or opposition for things to strengthen and have scale or perspective.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#3    davros of skaro

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 04:53 PM

If I was a Christian, but still recognized the evidence for Cosmology and Evolution to be true?

I would see the fall of Man as a metaphor as wanting to leave the protection of God by being tempted by the physical realm.Picture a Child asking the parent to drive a Car, but in this instance the parent being God says "Here's the Keys".Now everyone is on a wild ride limited to the nature of the vehicle.Everyone is just driving causing all sorts of mayhem.

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#4    Rlyeh

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 05:02 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 25 June 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

If I was a Christian, but still recognized the evidence for Cosmology and Evolution to be true?

I would see the fall of Man as a metaphor as wanting to leave the protection of God by being tempted by the physical realm.Picture a Child asking the parent to drive a Car, but in this instance the parent being God says "Here's the Keys".Now everyone is on a wild ride limited to the nature of the vehicle.Everyone is just driving causing all sorts of mayhem.
However that doesn't mean everyone wants this outcome. In Christian dogma, humans are incapable of meeting God's standards even if they wanted to, Christ had to come down to them.

When I was a Christian, the Creation myth explained it somewhat; the humans being corrupted by the talking serpent or satan. Since discarding creationism, my Christian beliefs followed.

As much as I dislike creationism, I see it more compatible with the Christian dogma than theistic evolution.

Edited by Rlyeh, 25 June 2014 - 05:09 PM.


#5    Rlyeh

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 05:23 PM

I'm not a big Dawkins fan but I agree with his statement that evolution is incompatible with Christianity.



Edit: I don't necessarily agree that Christian theistic evolutionists are deluded, they're trying to reconcile their faith with scientific evidence.

Edited by Rlyeh, 25 June 2014 - 05:36 PM.


#6    davros of skaro

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 05:29 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 25 June 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

However that doesn't mean everyone wants this outcome. In Christian dogma, humans are incapable of meeting God's standards even if they wanted to, Christ had to come down to them.

When I was a Christian, the Creation myth explained it somewhat; the humans being corrupted by the talking serpent or satan. Since discarding creationism, my Christian beliefs followed.

As much as I dislike creationism, I see it more compatible with the Christian dogma than theistic evolution.

Yes I can understand what you are saying.

The thing is you can make anything fit when you want to believe.Sin and punishment is a very powerful tool that still works to this day.

When you are convinced of a made up disease, you will seek the fake cure.If all people looked for real answers, and were able to handle some unknowns, then Religion would be out.

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#7    davros of skaro

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 05:45 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 25 June 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

I'm not a big Dawkins fan but I agree with his statement that evolution is incompatible with Christianity.

Edit: I don't necessarily agree that Christian theistic evolutionists are deluded, they're trying to reconcile their faith with scientific evidence.

Since you brought up Dawkins.

Does a Young Earth Creationist have more faith than an Evolution believing Christian?

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#8    Perceptivum

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 07:30 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 25 June 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

Many Christians do not believe the Creation myth, as an ex-Christian/creationist I wonder what is the explanation of humanity's fundamental flaw? Both the OT and NT imply human nature is wicked, more than just freewill they are incapable of following God's laws.
Did God even create humans at all?

Fascinating question and I have recently asked myself that on several occasions.  Although the Apocryphon of John is questionable, after reading it I wondered if Yaltabaoth wasn't the actual creator the earth, mankind, and was the god of the Old Testament.

Although I am a Christian, I do not believe the earth and everything on it (including man/woman) was created in 6-days.  Simply impossible in view of the substantial evidence.

"Even if you are in a minority of one, the truth is still the truth". - Ghandi

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#9    Rlyeh

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:02 PM

View PostPerceptivum, on 25 June 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

Fascinating question and I have recently asked myself that on several occasions.  Although the Apocryphon of John is questionable, after reading it I wondered if Yaltabaoth wasn't the actual creator the earth, mankind, and was the god of the Old Testament.

Although I am a Christian, I do not believe the earth and everything on it (including man/woman) was created in 6-days.  Simply impossible in view of the substantial evidence.
When I became sceptical of Christianity I found Gnosticism and the concept of the demiurge fascinating but not completely believable.


#10    Perceptivum

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:22 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 25 June 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

...Gnosticism and the concept of the demiurge fascinating but not completely believable.

I would agree.

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#11    GreenmansGod

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 08:31 PM

The whole disconnect with nature and science is what really what did it for me with the Abrahamic religions and made my atheist father a happy man.   The idea that we special and are not part of nature is ludacrest.  The only sin our ancestors did was climbing down from the trees.  The Earth was here along time before we came along and it will be here long after we are gone.  


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#12    Omnaka

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:10 PM

View PostPerceptivum, on 25 June 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:



Fascinating question and I have recently asked myself that on several occasions.  Although the Apocryphon of John is questionable, after reading it I wondered if Yaltabaoth wasn't the actual creator the earth, mankind, and was the god of the Old Testament.

Although I am a Christian, I do not believe the earth and everything on it (including man/woman) was created in 6-days.  Simply impossible in view of the substantial evidence.
Because there's no time in spirit, you are correct. Six days to spirit is a looong time.



#13    davros of skaro

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:32 PM

Obvious Bronze age mumbo jumbo is obvious.

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#14    DeWitz

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:39 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 25 June 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Obvious Bronze age mumbo jumbo is obvious.


Edited by DeWitz, 25 June 2014 - 09:41 PM.

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#15    Omnaka

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Posted 25 June 2014 - 09:44 PM

View Postdavros of skaro, on 25 June 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Obvious Bronze age mumbo jumbo is obvious.
Cant talk now,  gotta get back to the forge.
:)





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