Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Even Jesus wouldn't buy "The Rapture"

jesus; rapture; jay parini;

  • Please log in to reply
32 replies to this topic

#1    libstaK

libstaK

    Nosce Te Ipsum

  • 6,670 posts
  • Joined:06 Feb 2011
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia

  • Hello Reality and all that is True
    When Oxymoron was defined it was just for you

Posted 06 July 2014 - 09:47 PM

Excerpts:

HBO has just launched a new TV series based on a novel by Tom Perrotta called "The Leftovers," which in turn is based on the fundamentalist Christian idea of the rapture. Apart from the title, which suggests a refrigerator full of stale food, the series looks promising.
....
But what about the theology behind this industry?
....
The rapture concept is relatively new . it started with an Anglo-Irish theologian, who in the 1830s invented the concept. This may come as a shocker to many, but it's a fact: Before John Nelson Darby imagined this scenario in the clouds, no Christian had ever heard of the rapture.
....
The idea was popularized by Cyrus I. Scofield, an American minister who published a famous reference Bible in 1908, one that developed the idea of an elaborate series of final periods in history known as dispensations. Scofield, like Darby, read the Book of Revelation as a vision of the future, not a fiery dream of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70.
....
It's a problem, however, for rapture-minded Christians that the word "rapture" doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible,....
....
First, it's important to note that Jesus himself never talked about the rapture, ever.
....
Yet it's amazing how scriptures get misused, and relatively new theological ideas -- such as the rapture -- get deeply embedded in certain circles.

While the opinion piece is loosely related to the new TV Series "The LeftOvers", I really think the discussion is primarily based on the above excerpts and not the show itself, therefore I am linking it into the Spirituality Forum because the author brings up some very good points for discussion:

http://edition.cnn.c...article_sidebar

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#2    Realm

Realm

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,046 posts
  • Joined:29 Jan 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Somewhere in our spiral galaxy

  • "The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."
    Albert Einstein

Posted 06 July 2014 - 10:05 PM

1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Joh_1:51
And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Probably "rapture" came from these scriptures.


#3    Hammerclaw

Hammerclaw

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,670 posts
  • Joined:08 Jul 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:East Tennessee, Just over the hill from Oak Ridge.

  • "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"

Posted 06 July 2014 - 10:46 PM

Oh yeah, why would a dude that had been nailed to a cross until dead, entombed for three days and then raised from the dead, believe anything as fantastic as that?

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. - Hamlet (1.5.167-8),

#4    DeWitz

DeWitz

    DeWitz

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,635 posts
  • Joined:11 Feb 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Niagara Frontier

  • "Follow me, it's in Room 101."
    Clyde P. Fesmire, PhD

Posted 07 July 2014 - 12:32 AM

"Rapture" is merely a descriptive noun indicating a beatific vision of communion (with God). Think of the terms "rapture of the deep" for hallucinatory visions underwater when decompressing too swiftly; or "to be enraptured" of someone, referring to the ineffable joy of human love. Even the usual capitalization of "Rapture" indicates a conceptualization of the event as pertaining to an extraordinary, supernatural occurrence. In my opinion, the exact scriptural references matter less than the general concept to many, if not most, conservative, fundamentalist Christians. Those who want to can find Bible verses to support any given theory or theology.

As a liberal, non-fundamentalist Christian, I'm not much swayed by concepts of the "Rapture." But I do see the attraction of the concept because it seems to suggest that 'believers' will escape the hardships of the "Tribulation" (another capitalized concept). However, my reading and study of scripture leads me to a trans-historical, trans-temporal understanding of those verses which seem to refer to Jesus' "Second Coming" (another capitalized concept). In a spiritual sense all Christians "meet" or are "gathered" in some spiritual form with Christ, but not necessarily in an historical sense.

A good friend of mine--middle-aged, steeped in science as a registered nurse for many years--has a card on her refrigerator showing Jesus as a great cloudy, shiny figure hovering over the top of a cityscape full of tall buildings, and a bunch of crashed cars gathering below on the pavement. The idea is that believers will be "raptured" out of their vehicles and unbelievers will crash into the abandoned cars. No amount of discussion of alternative readings of scripture could dissuade her of this rather ham-handed "concept" of the "Rapture" and "Return."

Edited by DeWitz, 07 July 2014 - 12:37 AM.

[previously incarnate as 'szentgyorgy']

"Things fall apart. . . it's scientific." - Talking Heads

#5    Kenemet

Kenemet

    Extraterrestrial Entity

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 457 posts
  • Joined:13 Apr 2014

Posted 07 July 2014 - 01:15 AM

The theology IS new, and the changes in Christian belief in the past century or so have been startling.  The Baptists, for instance, seem to have gone from believing in Jesus as the Redeemer Son of God to "Jesus IS God."  I have seen some preachers writing about "Jesus in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve" -- a position that the Early Christians (including his followers) would have adamantly rejected.


#6    karmakazi

karmakazi

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,049 posts
  • Joined:27 May 2011
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Phoenix, Arizona

  • Oh I am a giddy goat!

Posted 07 July 2014 - 05:25 AM

View PostKenemet, on 07 July 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

The theology IS new, and the changes in Christian belief in the past century or so have been startling.  The Baptists, for instance, seem to have gone from believing in Jesus as the Redeemer Son of God to "Jesus IS God."  I have seen some preachers writing about "Jesus in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve" -- a position that the Early Christians (including his followers) would have adamantly rejected.

I'm fairly certain I've seen t-shirts and other items with a "Jesus IS God" logo..

But i won't go into the ick of Jesus merchandising, tempting as it is.

“When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That’s my religion.” – Abraham Lincoln

“You must do the thing you think you cannot do.” – Eleanor Roosevelt

“One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it’s worth watching.” – Unknown

#7    JJ50

JJ50

    Extraterrestrial Entity

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 451 posts
  • Joined:25 Apr 2014
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 07 July 2014 - 10:39 AM

If Jesus was around today I suspect he wouldn't know what the crazy loons who promote the rapture nonsense were talking about.

“The wise recognise their failings and laugh at their idiosyncrasies” RJG



#8    DeWitz

DeWitz

    DeWitz

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,635 posts
  • Joined:11 Feb 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Niagara Frontier

  • "Follow me, it's in Room 101."
    Clyde P. Fesmire, PhD

Posted 07 July 2014 - 01:01 PM

View PostKenemet, on 07 July 2014 - 01:15 AM, said:

The theology IS new, and the changes in Christian belief in the past century or so have been startling.  The Baptists, for instance, seem to have gone from believing in Jesus as the Redeemer Son of God to "Jesus IS God."  I have seen some preachers writing about "Jesus in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve" -- a position that the Early Christians (including his followers) would have adamantly rejected.

The doctrine of the Trinity was "settled" (by debate, coercion and violence) by the end of the 4th century. God is three in one and one in three. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, in three 'persons' (Greek, "hypostases"). The Father is not the Son; the Son is not the Spirit; the Spirit is neither the Father or Son. Of course, this ruling came to pass only after decades of debate, coercion and actual violence. Today all Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists and many more (the vast majority of world Christianity) believe that Jesus is God, in the context of the Trinity. Google "The Athanasian Creed" for a real mind-bender and tongue-twister.

Offered for background information only--I'm not interested in debating a 1600-hundred-year-old controversy.

[previously incarnate as 'szentgyorgy']

"Things fall apart. . . it's scientific." - Talking Heads

#9    libstaK

libstaK

    Nosce Te Ipsum

  • 6,670 posts
  • Joined:06 Feb 2011
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia

  • Hello Reality and all that is True
    When Oxymoron was defined it was just for you

Posted 07 July 2014 - 01:07 PM

View PostDeWitz, on 07 July 2014 - 01:01 PM, said:

The doctrine of the Trinity was "settled" (by debate, coercion and violence) by the end of the 4th century. God is three in one and one in three. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, in three 'persons' (Greek, "hypostases"). The Father is not the Son; the Son is not the Spirit; the Spirit is neither the Father or Son. Of course, this ruling came to pass only after decades of debate, coercion and actual violence. Today all Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists and many more (the vast majority of world Christianity) believe that Jesus is God, in the context of the Trinity. Google "The Athanasian Creed" for a real mind-bender and tongue-twister.

Offered for background information only--I'm not interested in debating a 1600-hundred-year-old controversy.
This is how I reconcile it:  Jesus the Christ is the emanation of God as the Son or the Word - the aspect of God enacting, The Holy Spirit is the emanation of God as Wisdom, the aspect of God which enlightens and Illuminates.  Aspects of God that are specific in their purpose but which carry the full force of God within them.

Edited by libstaK, 07 July 2014 - 01:09 PM.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#10    Dark_Grey

Dark_Grey

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,499 posts
  • Joined:08 Oct 2003
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Alberta, Canada

  • if (empty($universe)) {
    include 'reality.php';
    }

Posted 07 July 2014 - 02:27 PM

Isn't the rapture Biblicial supported? The Bible says "two women shall be in the field, one will one will taken, the other left" etc. Several verses reference this concept, though it's true that the word "rapture" itself is never mentioned.

Exploring your own consciousness is the fundamental right of every individual

Locking people in a cage because they choose to exercise that right should be considered a crime against humanity


#11    karmakazi

karmakazi

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,049 posts
  • Joined:27 May 2011
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Phoenix, Arizona

  • Oh I am a giddy goat!

Posted 07 July 2014 - 02:55 PM

View PostDark_Grey, on 07 July 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

Isn't the rapture Biblicial supported? The Bible says "two women shall be in the field, one will one will taken, the other left" etc. Several verses reference this concept, though it's true that the word "rapture" itself is never mentioned.

I find it kind of confusing.  On one hand, the bible does say things in revelations that allude to the modern idea of the rapture but at the same time it's not nearly as specific as the modern idea seems to be.  Though the timing and how many raptures there will be is still debated.

It seems like the verse you quoted was more pointing to the idea that there is a limited number of people who would make it into the kingdom of heaven as did many of Jesus' parables.

“When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That’s my religion.” – Abraham Lincoln

“You must do the thing you think you cannot do.” – Eleanor Roosevelt

“One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it’s worth watching.” – Unknown

#12    Rafterman

Rafterman

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 6,579 posts
  • Joined:27 Sep 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Upstate

Posted 07 July 2014 - 03:50 PM

I thought it was invented by Blondie.

"You can't have freedom of religion without having freedom from the religious beliefs of other people."

#13    Jor-el

Jor-el

    Knight of the Most High God

  • Member
  • 7,691 posts
  • Joined:12 Oct 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal

  • We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Posted 07 July 2014 - 05:52 PM

View PostlibstaK, on 06 July 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

Excerpts:

HBO has just launched a new TV series based on a novel by Tom Perrotta called "The Leftovers," which in turn is based on the fundamentalist Christian idea of the rapture. Apart from the title, which suggests a refrigerator full of stale food, the series looks promising.
....
But what about the theology behind this industry?
....
The rapture concept is relatively new . it started with an Anglo-Irish theologian, who in the 1830s invented the concept. This may come as a shocker to many, but it's a fact: Before John Nelson Darby imagined this scenario in the clouds, no Christian had ever heard of the rapture.
....
The idea was popularized by Cyrus I. Scofield, an American minister who published a famous reference Bible in 1908, one that developed the idea of an elaborate series of final periods in history known as dispensations. Scofield, like Darby, read the Book of Revelation as a vision of the future, not a fiery dream of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in A.D. 70.
....
It's a problem, however, for rapture-minded Christians that the word "rapture" doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible,....
....
First, it's important to note that Jesus himself never talked about the rapture, ever.
....
Yet it's amazing how scriptures get misused, and relatively new theological ideas -- such as the rapture -- get deeply embedded in certain circles.

While the opinion piece is loosely related to the new TV Series "The LeftOvers", I really think the discussion is primarily based on the above excerpts and not the show itself, therefore I am linking it into the Spirituality Forum because the author brings up some very good points for discussion:

http://edition.cnn.c...article_sidebar

Hmm, sorry to disappoint you Libstak, but the rapture Theology within the church can be traced to the 2nd century without doubt.

The author of that article did NOT do his homework.

Edited by Jor-el, 07 July 2014 - 05:54 PM.

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#14    029b10

029b10

    Ectoplasmic Residue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 232 posts
  • Joined:01 Feb 2014

Posted 07 July 2014 - 06:52 PM

View PostlibstaK, on 06 July 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

Excerpts:

It's a problem, however, for rapture-minded Christians that the word "rapture" doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible,...
First, it's important to note that Jesus himself never talked about the rapture, ever.

According to fiction writer Seucall Noman Medad, the rapture is cryptically encoded into the genetical fabric of the soul that gives those that evolved
from the Spirit and the Word the cognitive perception which allow them to understand the mystery of the rapture.  Which he describes as being;

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all those who evolved from the heaven and the earth and
cast them into the Photon reactors whereby their righteousness shall shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of his Father and save the earth from global warming.


Medad refers to source code "Cethaybit' signifying mark 11:30.  As far as myself, I am not sure what the rapture means and I certainly don't
understand any of the coded messages of religion, seems God would have a fool proof plan to me, but I can't help to think that maybe He does.

Edited by 029b10, 07 July 2014 - 07:04 PM.

Posted Image

Upon the Circuits of My Creator

shall I return to the Garden of Lights


#15    Dark_Grey

Dark_Grey

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,499 posts
  • Joined:08 Oct 2003
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Alberta, Canada

  • if (empty($universe)) {
    include 'reality.php';
    }

Posted 07 July 2014 - 07:01 PM

View Postkarmakazi, on 07 July 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

I find it kind of confusing.  On one hand, the bible does say things in revelations that allude to the modern idea of the rapture but at the same time it's not nearly as specific as the modern idea seems to be.  Though the timing and how many raptures there will be is still debated.

It seems like the verse you quoted was more pointing to the idea that there is a limited number of people who would make it into the kingdom of heaven as did many of Jesus' parables.

True. I suppose the "rapture parables" are those kind of verses that aren't meant to be taken literally. Unlike other verses which are meant to be taken literally. And some are metaphors. That can be literally by some people.

...it's all for interpretation.

Exploring your own consciousness is the fundamental right of every individual

Locking people in a cage because they choose to exercise that right should be considered a crime against humanity





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users