Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 1 votes

Pyramids etc-Sensible conversation


  • Please log in to reply
23 replies to this topic

#1    toyomotor

toyomotor

    Grumpy Old Coot

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,793 posts
  • Joined:28 Jun 2014
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tasmania, AUSTRALIA

  • Etiam capillus unus habet umbram.

Posted 11 July 2014 - 07:16 AM

Is it possible that we could have a sensible conversation about how ancient buildings were constructed, given the known technology of the time?

Concentrating on a narrow field for the time being, let's look at the Ancient Egyptian Pyramids, and the Ziggurats of South America.

The Egyptian pyramids discovered to date are all designed with very complex internal chambers, tunnels and other unexplained internal architectural features. The angles on which the tunnels and passageways are the subject of speculation, but not explanation. The pyramids are constructed of stone blocks, each individually weighing 100 imperial tons. There is no similar stone nearby. Each stone block is almost perfect in it's dimensions and the joins between each block are more perfect than those attained by modern day builders.

How is the precision of the pyramids explained, given the available tools?

The latest explanation of the stone blocks transportation to the sites is that they could have been dragged over wet sand. Are they serious?

Perhaps more intriguing are the Ziggurats of South America. Firstly, they are in some cases identical to ziggurats constructed in Mesopotamia-thousands of miles away. There is not historical evidence of any interchange bewteen Mesopotamia and South America-so called experts claim their similarity is coincidence. Rubbish.

The Stone Ziggurats are constructed of rock, dimensions are precise and the blocks, similar to those of the pyramids, are huge. Bear in mind that the ancient South Americans had no iron tools at the time. Try cutting granite with copper or bronze!


There has never been an explanation for the actual precision of the blocks, and the lack of evident tool marks on them.

Please, leave out the alien theories, but any other sensible ideas worthy of discussion would be appreciated.

Everything is possible,
Except the impossible.
And we're working on that.

#2    bubblykiss

bubblykiss

    Last Among Equals

  • Member
  • 4,272 posts
  • Joined:06 Feb 2014
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:PHX, AZ

Posted 11 July 2014 - 07:21 AM

How is the precision of the pyramids explained, given the available tools?

Simple, ancient people were still people with no distractions like smart phones, interwebs or tv and spent a lot of time hitting rocks with other rocks.

They then stacked said rocks onto other rocks using complex things like a rock hanging from a rope lined up with another rock.

Ancient people were not dumber or less capable then we are. They are just underestimated by us with our Taco Bells, internal combustion engines and reality televisions.

Her singing always cheered him up. Life seemed so much brighter when she stopped.

T. Pratchett.

#3    aquatus1

aquatus1

    Forum Divinity

  • 21,226 posts
  • Joined:05 Mar 2004
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 11 July 2014 - 09:01 AM

View Posttoyomotor, on 11 July 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

How is the precision of the pyramids explained, given the available tools?

It's a matter of perspective.  Given the tools of their times, the pyramid is very precise.  Given the tools of our time, an architecture student presenting a plan for the pyramid would have been failed by their professor.  In other words, the first hurdle to overcome is the belief that pyramid precision was anything objectively astonishing.  It wasn't.  It was great for it's time (great, not incredible), being that they used rope triangles and barrel rulers, but the precision of pyramid construction is most certainly not the most impressive aspect of the pyramids.  The temple of Karnak is far more impressive in terms of technology and skill required to construct than the simple pyramid.

Quote

The latest explanation of the stone blocks transportation to the sites is that they could have been dragged over wet sand. Are they serious?

One of many theories.  There's so many different ways to do it, we are kind of spoiled for choice.

Quote

Perhaps more intriguing are the Ziggurats of South America. Firstly, they are in some cases identical to ziggurats constructed in Mesopotamia-thousands of miles away.

Ahh...what cases where those?

The pyramid of Djoser is definitely a step pyramid, but that's pretty much just a basic shape, inescapable in pyramid building.  Once we leave the basic shape behind and start getting cultural, the Meso-American pyramids went for broad, flat, pyramids with large number of levels and emphasis on the steps, including an external staircase leading to the top, where Mesopotamian ziggurats became blockish, fortress looking affairs, with three or four levels and rampways.

Quote

There is not historical evidence of any interchange bewteen Mesopotamia and South America-so called experts claim their similarity is coincidence. Rubbish.

There's...really only so many ways you can build a pyramid with masonry technology.

Quote

The Stone Ziggurats are constructed of rock, dimensions are precise and the blocks, similar to those of the pyramids, are huge. Bear in mind that the ancient South Americans had no iron tools at the time. Try cutting granite with copper or bronze!

Incidentally, Ziggurats are specifically Mesopotamian.  There are no South American Zigurrats, by definition.  And they aren't all that precise.

Quote

There has never been an explanation for the actual precision of the blocks, and the lack of evident tool marks on them.

That's kind of the thing here.  You are running on this basic assumption that there is something magical about the precision, probably because you've heard it over and over again from mystery websites.  The claim is exaggerated.  Yes, the masonry was very precise for its time.  Based on the tools of their period.  And yes, there are tool marks all over the place.  The tool marks are what allow researchers to determine how the tools were used.

Sensible discussion needs to begin by sifting the wheat from the chaff.  It isn't as romantic as the sacred mysteries, but it tends to be more rewarding in the end.


#4    third_eye

third_eye

    _ M Ġ ń Ř Ī Ş_

  • Member
  • 12,266 posts
  • Joined:06 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Malaysia

  • - God has no religion ~ Mahatma Gandhi -

    "Legio nomen mihi est, quia multi sumus"

Posted 11 July 2014 - 09:11 AM

Its just one of those modern 'scientific' blindspots .... its so simple that modern speculative capabilities need not adhere to stringent modern scientific distinctions when evaluating the myriad of simplistic postulates currently applied ... ropes and stacking is all that is needed ...

Kinda like how Columbus 'discovered' the 'New World' following a 'map' .... common sense out the window just because .... its simple ...

He who postpones the hour of living rightly ... is like the rustic who waits for the river to run out ... before he crosses.
Horace - Roman lyric poet & satirist 65 BC - 8 BC
~

third_eye cavern ~ bring own beer


#5    toyomotor

toyomotor

    Grumpy Old Coot

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,793 posts
  • Joined:28 Jun 2014
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tasmania, AUSTRALIA

  • Etiam capillus unus habet umbram.

Posted 11 July 2014 - 10:28 AM

View Postbubblykiss, on 11 July 2014 - 07:21 AM, said:

How is the precision of the pyramids explained, given the available tools?

Simple, ancient people were still people with no distractions like smart phones, interwebs or tv and spent a lot of time hitting rocks with other rocks.

They then stacked said rocks onto other rocks using complex things like a rock hanging from a rope lined up with another rock.




Quote

Simple, ancient people were still people with no distractions like smart phones, interwebs or tv and spent a lot of time hitting rocks with other rocks

So why are there no tool marks?

How long did it take to build the pyramids?

Everything is possible,
Except the impossible.
And we're working on that.

#6    toyomotor

toyomotor

    Grumpy Old Coot

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,793 posts
  • Joined:28 Jun 2014
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tasmania, AUSTRALIA

  • Etiam capillus unus habet umbram.

Posted 11 July 2014 - 10:39 AM

View Postaquatus1, on 11 July 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

It's a matter of perspective.  Given the tools of their times, the pyramid is very precise.  Given the tools of our time, an architecture student presenting a plan for the pyramid would have been failed by their professor.  In other words, the first hurdle to overcome is the belief that pyramid precision was anything objectively astonishing.  It wasn't.  It was great for it's time (great, not incredible), being that they used rope triangles and barrel rulers, but the precision of pyramid construction is most certainly not the most impressive aspect of the pyramids.  The temple of Karnak is far more impressive in terms of technology and skill required to construct than the simple pyramid.

One of many theories.  There's so many different ways to do it, we are kind of spoiled for choice.

Ahh...what cases where those?

I've forgotten the name of the building in South America, but it's a well known one-and it compares very closely with the Mesopotamian building.


Quote

That's kind of the thing here.  You are running on this basic assumption that there is something magical about the precision, probably because you've heard it over and over again from mystery websites.  The claim is exaggerated.  Yes, the masonry was very precise for its time.  Based on the tools of their period.  And yes, there are tool marks all over the place.  The tool marks are what allow researchers to determine how the tools were used.

Sensible discussion needs to begin by sifting the wheat from the chaff.  It isn't as romantic as the sacred mysteries, but it tends to be more rewarding in the end.

That's the point, I'm not following the fantasy trail at all. But I am interested in how such precision could have been achieved, block by block, and how the blocks could have been moved. Surely it would have taken hundreds of years to construct one?

Quote

Incidentally, Ziggurats are specifically Mesopotamian. There are no South American Zigurrats, by definition. And they aren't all that precise.

OK, use of the word Ziggurat was mine. I've seen them called pyramids in many articles, but as they don't taper all the way to the top, I would have thought them more alike to Ziggurats.

Quote

  Yes, the masonry was very precise for its time. Based on the tools of their period. And yes, there are tool marks all over the place. The tool marks are what allow researchers to determine how the tools were used.

Sorry, I've never read that.

Everything is possible,
Except the impossible.
And we're working on that.

#7    aquatus1

aquatus1

    Forum Divinity

  • 21,226 posts
  • Joined:05 Mar 2004
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 11 July 2014 - 11:48 AM

View Posttoyomotor, on 11 July 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

I've forgotten the name of the building in South America, but it's a well known one-and it compares very closely with the Mesopotamian building.

Chances are that you are talking about the Pyramid of the Sun and Djoser's pyramid.

Quote

That's the point, I'm not following the fantasy trail at all. But I am interested in how such precision could have been achieved, block by block, and how the blocks could have been moved. Surely it would have taken hundreds of years to construct one?

The first step in not following the fantasy is recognizing that you are following the fantasy.  Prior to determining how such precision could be achieved, you first need to determine how much precision is actually present.

Here's a hint:  Look for the "no" answer.  The answer that will disprove your current hypothesis.  If you believe the stones are precise, you will look for sources confirming they are precise (you will look for and get "yes" answers).  Instead, do a search for the lack of precision.  Find out how imperfect the construction was.

Quote

OK, use of the word Ziggurat was mine. I've seen them called pyramids in many articles, but as they don't taper all the way to the top, I would have thought them more alike to Ziggurats.

They are simply called stepped pyramids, which differ from "true" pyramids in that they consist of mastabas stacked on top of each other.  It is a simple progression from a single mastaba to multiple ones, which then grew to a pyramid as masonry knowledge increased.  It's a fairly straightforward technology that has been individually discovered all over the world many times in history.

Ziggurats are a bit more advanced and pretty culturally specific.

Quote

Sorry, I've never read that.

Ah, but have you looked?

Edited by aquatus1, 11 July 2014 - 11:49 AM.


#8    seeder

seeder

    Nut Cracker

  • Member
  • 14,123 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK. There if you need me

  • Never forget that only the weak fish swim with the stream, and a lie travels half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.

Posted 11 July 2014 - 12:46 PM

View Posttoyomotor, on 11 July 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

The pyramids are constructed of stone blocks, each individually weighing 100 imperial tons. There is no similar stone nearby. Each stone block is almost perfect in it's dimensions and the joins between each block are more perfect than those attained by modern day builders.


Not quite, the average block weighs 2.5 tons, where did you get 100 tons from? And, precision. Again, its not all so precise as you have heard. At all.

See how snuggly the blocks DO NOT fit together? And notice each block is quite different from the next

Great Pyramid

Posted Image

Posted Image




Modern day builders cannot build so precisely you say? :lol:



.

Edited by seeder, 11 July 2014 - 12:50 PM.

It wasn’t the miners who got rich; it was the people selling picks and shovels. Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored
It's not the depth of the rabbit hole that bugs me... It's all the rabbit poop you stumble over on your way down...
“It's easier to fool people - than to convince them that they have been fooled.”  Mark Twain

"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long to begin it"

#9    DefenceMinisterMishkin

DefenceMinisterMishkin

    Megalodon Trapper

  • Banned
  • 4,590 posts
  • Joined:04 Jun 2014
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Andover, England

Posted 11 July 2014 - 12:51 PM

Behold the power of slave labour.. :P

Posted Image

#10    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 39,727 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 11 July 2014 - 01:30 PM

View Posttoyomotor, on 11 July 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

I've forgotten the name of the building in South America, but it's a well known one-and it compares very closely with the Mesopotamian building.

and the living quarters on Machu Pichu resemble closely medieval field stone construction on Ireland... given a certain material there are not many innovative ways to apply them.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#11    Taun

Taun

    A dashing moose about town...

  • Member
  • 7,568 posts
  • Joined:19 May 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tornado Alley (Oklahoma)

Posted 11 July 2014 - 03:05 PM

Here is a pic of the pyramid at Chitzen-Itza also the Ziggarut at Ur in Iraq... As you can see one resembles the other the same way an apple resembles an orange... same basic geometric shape...

Posted Image

Posted Image

Other than the very basic shape.. you can see that they are in no other way similar... The angle of slope is very different, the stair-ramps are drastically different not only in shape, but location,
angle, quantity and attachment to the base structure...  Where the meso-American structure has a staircase on each of the four faces of the building, and the stairs hug close to the
slope of the sides, the Ziggurat has three stair cases - all on the same side, that protrude from the front of the structure, and join before merging with the pyramid slope...

As you can see - they really are not all that similar...

Edited by Taun, 11 July 2014 - 03:07 PM.


#12    Taun

Taun

    A dashing moose about town...

  • Member
  • 7,568 posts
  • Joined:19 May 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tornado Alley (Oklahoma)

Posted 11 July 2014 - 03:13 PM

Here is another longer distance view of the Ziggurat, showing it's basic shape...

Posted Image


#13    scorpiosonic

scorpiosonic

    Still Skeptical

  • Closed
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,137 posts
  • Joined:18 Jan 2014

Posted 11 July 2014 - 04:38 PM

Regarding the pyramids @ Giza: many weights have been quoted for the pyramid core stones from 50-150+ tons. Most of the stones of the pyramid body weigh 2 1/2 tons or less, and most of these stones were quarried within about 300 meters of the pyramids. There are gaps between stones of the GP measuring up to 22 cm.


#14    toyomotor

toyomotor

    Grumpy Old Coot

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,793 posts
  • Joined:28 Jun 2014
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tasmania, AUSTRALIA

  • Etiam capillus unus habet umbram.

Posted 12 July 2014 - 02:19 AM

Thank you all for your comments, which have enlightened me greatly.

Everything is possible,
Except the impossible.
And we're working on that.

#15    aquatus1

aquatus1

    Forum Divinity

  • 21,226 posts
  • Joined:05 Mar 2004
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 12 July 2014 - 10:10 AM

Not a problem, and thank you for being open-minded.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users