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At what odds, a miracle?


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#1    aka CAT

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 05:06 AM

How rare need a ‘gift horse’ be to be unearthly?
How singular must an ability be to be preternatural?
Were the impossible to happen,
would any amount of evidence convince you of the fact?--

What nearly impossible long shot must one overcome to prove a miracle?


#2    quiXilver

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 05:41 AM

Things beyond understanding do not mean miraculous, preter, or supernatural to me.
Just incomprehensible from our perspective.
If it exists, it's natural, even if I or we, don't understand it.

So a miracle equals something beyond our ken of understanding.
Our light switches and cameras would be miracles in the 13th century, (or devil's toys depending where you landed).
Degrees of extremity for me, do not belie mystery, just unknown/unknowable.

Unknowingly, we plow the dust of stars, blown about us by the wind and drink the universe in a glass of rain. ~ Ihab Hassan
You never change things by fighting the existing reality.  To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ~R. Buckminster Fuller
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#3    Omnaka

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 06:48 AM

To some a miracle is coincidence.



#4    quiXilver

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 07:02 AM

True enough, in the end perception is reality.
I lean toward synchronicity, with a physics twist, all things being connected...

Unknowingly, we plow the dust of stars, blown about us by the wind and drink the universe in a glass of rain. ~ Ihab Hassan
You never change things by fighting the existing reality.  To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ~R. Buckminster Fuller
Just because you thought it, or felt it deeply, doesn't make it real, true or important.  Don't believe everything you think... ~ Creighton Larson
Everything you Love and Everything you Hate, come from the Same Source:  ~Creighton Larson

#5    -Desiderata-

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 07:36 AM

Every child born was once considered a miracle?  

Proving a miracle should be simple should they exist.  For instance If you were to send me a quiet-made recording generated from your PC, and uploaded it for me to open up here. Then If that recording was to alter this end (altering it likewise at your end.. adding noise that was not pre-recorded by you.. from an unknown signal) Would that be considered a miracle?


#6    JJ50

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 08:19 AM

Unexplained healing does happen from time to time, but I am certain the cause is natural, nothing to do with any deity!

“The wise recognise their failings and laugh at their idiosyncrasies” RJG



#7    Mr Walker

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 09:22 AM

It is not about the nature or number or rarity of an event which makes it a miracle (well not a divine miracle anyway ) For it to be a miracle of god there has to be evidence of god's intent and purpose and action . So if god tells a person dying of terminal cancer "Tomorrow you will wake up and the cancer will have disappeared completely and it will never return BECAUSE I have healed you."   AND THEN this all happens, that is a miracle.  IF god tells you that tomorrow you will receive a hundred dollars needed to buy food for your family and you do, then that too is a miracle.

Non divine miracles are often named as such, just because of the odds against them happening butt hey are not really miracles. For example if a person woke up one day healed of cancer, that by itself is not a miracle; or if a person finds $100 on the street just when they need it for food, then that is not a miracle.

But if god tells you, "Pull off the road now because two trucks are overtaking on that blind corner, and if you go on you will be killed" Then that is a miracle if you stop and then watch two trucks come  round the bend taking up all the road and doing 50 miles an hour

If you are locked in a gaol cell, awaiting execution, and god says, "Try the door. You will find it unlocked and the guards asleep. Walk down the road to the house with a green door. Knock and you will find someone to help you" then that IS  a miracle if it all proves true.

Edited by Mr Walker, 12 July 2014 - 09:24 AM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#8    davros of skaro

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 04:49 PM

Let's amputate all your limbs...Oh wait..Just your legs.Then pray to Jesus to regrow your legs.

Miracle!

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https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "Mythical Jesus" Dr. Carrier
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=IybD2xzkhtc <-- "Mythical Moses" Dr. Price (starts@10:20)
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <-- Science Behind Irrational Beliefs
Inanna the Goddess of love was crucified, then after 3 days/nights was resurrected. An over 3,000 yo Tablet saying this is proof of it's truth. Praise Jesus Serotonin Christ!

#9    Doug1o29

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 05:45 PM

View Postaka CAT, on 12 July 2014 - 05:06 AM, said:

What nearly impossible long shot must one overcome to prove a miracle?
That somebody will win the lottery is not a miracle.  It is set up so that somebody will win it.  The miracle occurs if I win it.

Some on here aren't going to like that answer.  That is because it is probabilistic.  If I play the lottery enough times, I'll win it.  That's Des Cartes' Law, or the Law of Regression.  Given enough replications, if an outcome is possible it will happen.  And that means that no "miracle" based on probability is a miracle at all.

So what is a miracle?  If an outcome that can't happen, does, a miracle has occurred.  Either that, or there's something about that outcome that we don't understand.

Simple:  a miracle is something that can't happen.
Doug

Edited by Doug1o29, 12 July 2014 - 05:48 PM.

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Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
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#10    Mr Walker

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 12:54 AM

View PostDoug1o29, on 12 July 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

That somebody will win the lottery is not a miracle.  It is set up so that somebody will win it.  The miracle occurs if I win it.

Some on here aren't going to like that answer.  That is because it is probabilistic.  If I play the lottery enough times, I'll win it.  That's Des Cartes' Law, or the Law of Regression.  Given enough replications, if an outcome is possible it will happen.  And that means that no "miracle" based on probability is a miracle at all.

So what is a miracle?  If an outcome that can't happen, does, a miracle has occurred.  Either that, or there's something about that outcome that we don't understand.

Simple:  a miracle is something that can't happen.
Doug
If we accepted that definition then there would be no miracles. :innocent:  I tend to agree, in one sense. Nothing is miraculous, all has a 'natural explanation" but some natural explanations remain beyond our ken Those we call miracles. (But then I include 'god" as a part of nature and the natural world)

How would you feel about winning the lottery, and getting the money, when you had never entered a ticket and no one else had done it for you either?

Is that something that can't happen, and if it did would it be a miracle?

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#11    Leonardo

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 12:20 PM

Theologically speaking no "longness" of odds defines something as a miracle. An event may be a trillion-trillion to one occurence, but unless it is ascribed to a deity it is not a miracle.

The only thing that defines something as a miracle, is its assignation of cause being the work of a deity.

So, a miracle is only something one believes to be a miracle, there is no mathematics behind it.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

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#12    Doug1o29

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 01:14 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 13 July 2014 - 12:54 AM, said:

If we accepted that definition then there would be no miracles. :innocent:  I tend to agree, in one sense. Nothing is miraculous, all has a 'natural explanation" but some natural explanations remain beyond our ken Those we call miracles. (But then I include 'god" as a part of nature and the natural world)

How would you feel about winning the lottery, and getting the money, when you had never entered a ticket and no one else had done it for you either?

Is that something that can't happen, and if it did would it be a miracle?
There are two kinds of events.  Those that are physically possible, and those that aren't.  Physical events happen with varying frequency.  Some happen many times a day, or a second, even.  Like chemical reactions.  Some happen only at extreme intervals - like the impact of a planet-killing asteroid.

Given that an event is possible and given enough time, then it will actually happen.  That is not a miracle.

If an event occurs at extremely infrequent intervals and we put a time-limit on when it can happen, like this year, or this century, and it happens, that might be called a miracle.  In this case, "miracle" is defined by probability.  So we define "miracle" as a probability limit.  If it happens more-frequently, it is not a miracle, but if less-frequently, then it is.  That's sort of arbitrary.  The important thing to remember is that the limit must be set before-the-fact.  Afterward, the event happened or it didn't and the definition of miracle does not come into play.

What would I say if I won the lottery without having bought a ticket.  I'd say there was a natural chain of events with which I was unfamiliar.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#13    davros of skaro

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 01:35 PM

I was with a Muslim in his Truck on the Highway in a Snowstorm.I was going to tell him to slow down, but he does not listen to me because I am a couple years younger than him (culture thing).The Truck slid, hit the Guardrail and bounced back on the Road.

To him this was a miracle.To me this is the result of him not taking my advice of putting weight in the bed over the wheel wells, and the State's Transportation Dept putting a Guardrail where it needs to be.

There seems to be a correlation to ignorance and miracle acceptance.This is in belief systems where people are conditioned that this line of thinking is a pious virtue.

Posted Image
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=79Lmmy2jfeo <-- "Mythical Jesus" Dr. Carrier
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=IybD2xzkhtc <-- "Mythical Moses" Dr. Price (starts@10:20)
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=272571 <-- Science Behind Irrational Beliefs
Inanna the Goddess of love was crucified, then after 3 days/nights was resurrected. An over 3,000 yo Tablet saying this is proof of it's truth. Praise Jesus Serotonin Christ!

#14    Eldorado

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 01:44 PM

You can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket.


#15    Mr Walker

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 01:57 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 13 July 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

There are two kinds of events.  Those that are physically possible, and those that aren't.  Physical events happen with varying frequency.  Some happen many times a day, or a second, even.  Like chemical reactions.  Some happen only at extreme intervals - like the impact of a planet-killing asteroid.

Given that an event is possible and given enough time, then it will actually happen.  That is not a miracle.

If an event occurs at extremely infrequent intervals and we put a time-limit on when it can happen, like this year, or this century, and it happens, that might be called a miracle.  In this case, "miracle" is defined by probability.  So we define "miracle" as a probability limit.  If it happens more-frequently, it is not a miracle, but if less-frequently, then it is.  That's sort of arbitrary.  The important thing to remember is that the limit must be set before-the-fact.  Afterward, the event happened or it didn't and the definition of miracle does not come into play.

What would I say if I won the lottery without having bought a ticket.  I'd say there was a natural chain of events with which I was unfamiliar.
Doug


I tend to agree with you but what you are saying is that there is nothing which is impossible IE if something happens, then it is possible, no matter how unexpected it is.

Thus for you there is no such thing as a miracle. A rock rolling up hill would have some rational reason for its behaviour, Again in one way I agree although I can empathise when coincidence is so stretched statistically that people think it requires a miracle  BUT I know that certain types of miracle are real. That is where an intelligent being (from god to human) uses ability or technology to alter what would otherwise  naturally be. Thus penicillin is a miracle drug and so is a polio vaccination.  In the case of god his miracles are the application of a science and technology beyond our present understanding and thus also  (as far as we are able to ascertain) a miracle.

Edited by Mr Walker, 13 July 2014 - 02:03 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




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