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Matthew 27:52-56


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#1    bubblykiss

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 03:11 AM

King James Bible
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.



My father and I have argued about this part of Matthew for around 20 years. Over the years I have noted;

1. Imagine the economic implications of dead saints roaming around a city
2. Were their bodies whole or corrupted
3. Did they testify to Death of Christ
4. Why does no other ancient source mention the dead raising for "The King of Jews"


So what do you think of this chilling and always fascinating passage?

Her singing always cheered him up. Life seemed so much brighter when she stopped.

T. Pratchett.

#2    and then

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 05:43 AM

I always thought that these were the first fruits - as in Jewish agricultural tradition.  But I suspected that they only were known by those familiar to them and they didn't hang around for long.  They were witnesses of his resurrection and then they went their way to be in heaven.  That has been my understanding but afaik there is no scriptural proof.

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#3    Kenemet

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 05:53 AM

There are many things in the Bible that appear to have no relation to anything in history.  Case in point, "the slaughter of the innocents."  The Jews do not record any order from Rome to kill all baby boys of a certain age during one year (and there would have been a revolt if Rome had tried that) nor are there graveyards with an unusual number of male infants from that time period.

I think it's a "Holy Urban Legend", told many years after the fact, to add a sense of wonder to the event.


#4    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 06:39 AM

What i reckon (as i so often do) is that's it's metaphorical, and the "Saints" are the prophets of old and the resurrection means that their prophecies were being fulfilled.
The reference to "Saints" is surely an anachronism, probably inserted by the translators (who, particularly in the KJV, were certainly not above doing such things) inserting some Christian theology, not necessarily to deceive, but probably to make the point more easily understandable.

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#5    7thTrumpet

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 07:18 AM

Quote

1. Imagine the economic implications of dead saints roaming around a city
2. Were their bodies whole or corrupted

There wouldn't be any.. side effects from this, because the Bible is talking about 'full body apparitions' = 100% visible spirits. Money is man made and has no effect in the afterlife.

Quote

3. Did they testify to Death of Christ

Oh yes.. We have many saints that refused to convert although they knew what awaits them.. Even in these days you can find videos of Christians getting slauthered.. I've seen videos that ****ed up my mood for weeks.

Quote

4. Why does no other ancient source mention the dead raising for "The King of Jews"

Don't know :P  But that doesn't necessarily dismiss the Bible's sayings.

Edited by 7thTrumpet, 13 July 2014 - 07:20 AM.

“I am a fool for Christ...whose fool are you?” - Brother Andrew

#6    bubblykiss

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 07:26 AM

Here is just about every translation of the first line you could ever want;

New International Version
and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

New Living Translation
and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead.

English Standard Version
The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,

New American Standard Bible
The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

King James Bible
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The tombs were also opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.

International Standard Version
tombs were opened, and many saints who had died were brought back to life.

NET Bible
And tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had died were raised.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Tombs were opened, and many bodies of the Saints who were sleeping arose.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The tombs were opened, and the bodies of many holy people who had died came back to life.

Jubilee Bible 2000
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who slept arose

King James 2000 Bible
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints that slept arose,

American King James Version
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

American Standard Version
and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised;

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose,

Darby Bible Translation
and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints fallen asleep arose,

English Revised Version
and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised;

Webster's Bible Translation
And the graves were opened, and many bodies of saints who slept, arose,

Weymouth New Testament
the tombs opened; and many of God's people who were asleep in death awoke.

World English Bible
The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

Young's Literal Translation
and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose,

Her singing always cheered him up. Life seemed so much brighter when she stopped.

T. Pratchett.

#7    7thTrumpet

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 09:13 AM

What about the bodies of those that were burned and nothing left but ashes ? Or the beheaded and amputated ones that were scattered in different places ? The soul is intangible, therefore it cannot be scattered nor distorted. Keeping also in mind that the Bible talks about the salvation of our souls and eternal life (which can only be achieved in the spiritual world), I believe this line is a metaphor.

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#8    Rlyeh

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 10:06 AM

I don't know about economical, however dead bodies coming out of their graves, appearing to many and it only gets a short mention. No one else recorded it? Maybe the walking dead was a common occurrence back then.


#9    JJ50

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 12:50 PM

View Postbubblykiss, on 13 July 2014 - 03:11 AM, said:

King James Bible
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.



My father and I have argued about this part of Matthew for around 20 years. Over the years I have noted;

1. Imagine the economic implications of dead saints roaming around a city
2. Were their bodies whole or corrupted
3. Did they testify to Death of Christ
4. Why does no other ancient source mention the dead raising for "The King of Jews"


So what do you think of this chilling and always fascinating passage?

More silly nonsense from that not so 'good' book!

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#10    GreenmansGod

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 01:45 PM

Here in Ft Myers, Florida we call it Zombie Con.
Posted Image

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#11    bubblykiss

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 07:24 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 13 July 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

I don't know about economical, however dead bodies coming out of their graves, appearing to many and it only gets a short mention. No one else recorded it? Maybe the walking dead was a common occurrence back then.

By economical I mean this, if they were the literal flesh and blood bodies of dead humans returned from the voyage into death and you happened to encounter say your dead for the last 36 years grand father, who is talking about a guy you may not be aware of.....would you go to work that day? Is he 35 years of no drinking thirsty? Do bar tenders want to tend to the freshly risen dead who are talking about a messiah?

Did the dead need to eat or sleep? Who funded their meals and rest? Where and when did they go? Do you have to rebury them with all of the rituals and coffins and ossuary boxes or are all the old ones still good for the 2nd burial?

Her singing always cheered him up. Life seemed so much brighter when she stopped.

T. Pratchett.

#12    Jor-el

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 12:43 PM

Personally I see this verse as being literal but not in the way people are reading it. The people who rose from the dead did not actually return to their bodies and resurrect as was the case of Jesus Christ.

I think this verse is illustrating something else entirely, that the holy dead were liberated from the grave or hades, also known as Abrahams bosom, or paradise.

This happened when Jesus was resurrected, thus of all the places in the realm of the dead, paradise (Abrahams bosom) is now empty, as all the people who did inhabit it arose to heaven with Jesus as the 1st fruits of the resurrection. They, however do not posses bodies as the resurrection will only occur in the future where all who are saved will recieve the eternal and uncorruptable bodies promised to us in scripture.

Thus it stands to reason that these people also walked the land as resurrected spirits and arose with Jesus when he rose to heaven, 40 days after his resurrection.

Posted Image


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#13    docyabut2

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 01:58 PM

Before that the curtain in the temple was torn in half that separated the people from God that Jesus tried to break down and teach no one is separated from the love of God. I think the writer meant when Jesus sacrifice his life on the cross the saints and people that had passed before were now aware of this sacrifice.


#14    Sundew

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 02:28 PM

View Postbubblykiss, on 13 July 2014 - 03:11 AM, said:

King James Bible
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.



My father and I have argued about this part of Matthew for around 20 years. Over the years I have noted;

1. Imagine the economic implications of dead saints roaming around a city
2. Were their bodies whole or corrupted
3. Did they testify to Death of Christ
4. Why does no other ancient source mention the dead raising for "The King of Jews"


So what do you think of this chilling and always fascinating passage?

I'll deal with the second point first: When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, his sister said that after four days in the tomb there would be a foul odor of decay. In fact Jesus said that He delayed his journey to see Lazarus so that His disciples might believe His claims. It might be easy to fake a resurrection or someone who had "died" only hours before, but impossible once decay had set in. So, Lazarus, though he had been dead four days did not come back as some "zombie" with rotting skin and organs and bones showing, he came back as he was before his sickness. This so alarmed the Jewish leaders who were trying to find ways to put Jesus to death that they decided they wanted to kill Lazarus as well. So as to whether those raised would be whole or corrupted, I would say this gives a clue that they came back whole.

Economically I would say there would be great joy, celebration and feasting if a loved one once dead and supposedly gone from you life forever suddenly is returned to you. That would be the positive impact. Fear would be the negative impact, as in, "Is this a ghost, is it the work of the devil, etcetera?" Probably more positive than negative once the identity of those raised was confirmed. We do not however, know the number of "many" and it may be a few dozen rather than multiple hundreds of thousands. If ten verifiably death and decaying individuals suddenly came out the grave today and walked the earth that alone would be amazing enough.

I would say yes, they testified of Christ: These were saints (and saint in the Scripture is any saved individual) who knew Christ and indeed may have seen Him quite recently during His earthly ministry.

As to why there are no extra-Biblical confirmations of Scripture, there have been many persons, places and events in the Bible that were once thought by secular scholars to be non-existant. King David is a good example. He was thought to be a fictional character until he was found mentioned in some ancient clay tablet. This event happened to believers in a time of hostility towards them, the authorities had managed to crucify Christ, scatter His followers and put many saints to death. It is possible that many of these individuals were kept out of sight by family and friends.

Also, nearly 2000 years have passed along with shifting control of the area in question many, many times, perhaps such evidence existed but exists no longer. We may never know.


#15    Frank Merton

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 02:29 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 13 July 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

I don't know about economical, however dead bodies coming out of their graves, appearing to many and it only gets a short mention. No one else recorded it? Maybe the walking dead was a common occurrence back then.
There's a lot in Matthew that is mentioned nowhere else.  I get the idea he (the person who wrote what we call "Matthew") was more inventive in making up stories while the others stuck more strictly to the developing tradition.





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