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#1    and then

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 05:48 PM

http://palwatch.org/...57&doc_id=12019

If they are not using these civilians to protect their firing positions then why  is their presence in a KNOWN killzone necessary?

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#2    Yes_Man

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 06:58 PM

Israel is being clever here, they leaflet droppings was done well in order to get people out of the way, unfortunately the Palestinians have nowhere to go in the Gaza strip. Now with Israel targeting civilians homes, which they have done before and had inquests and apologized. However you have to questions the Israelis intelligence which hasn't been accurate over the last 20+ years or so.


#3    and then

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 09:29 PM

View PostYes_Man, on 14 July 2014 - 06:58 PM, said:

Israel is being clever here, they leaflet droppings was done well in order to get people out of the way, unfortunately the Palestinians have nowhere to go in the Gaza strip. Now with Israel targeting civilians homes, which they have done before and had inquests and apologized. However you have to questions the Israelis intelligence which hasn't been accurate over the last 20+ years or so.
The 17000 or so who have already moved away would seem to indicate you are incorrect on this.  I have been listening to i24 news from Israel and a truce is being called for midnight central time US.  About 6 am for GB.

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#4    RoofGardener

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 09:56 PM

Truly ?
A PROPER truce, or just a pause whillst HAMAS tries to smuggle in replacement rockets ?

Oh well... fingers crossed.

"We rejected freedom yesterday, we rejected freedom today and we reject your freedom tomorrow," Sufyan Bada, "moderate" Australian Muslim Leader, commenting on the Charlie Hebdo murders and the concept of "freedom of speech". So when they come for YOUR freedom, you can't claim you didn't know what they stood for.

#5    Yamato

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 10:43 PM

The IDF uses human shields too.   So that's not a valid reason to pick sides here either.

By rabbi decree, "openly":
http://www.haaretz.c...hields-1.320311

Gotta put it in quotes though when Israel does it:
http://www.haaretz.c...za-war-1.264652

We can go on and on.
http://mondoweiss.ne...ian-shield.html
http://www.btselem.o...s_in_beit_hanun
http://www.ynetnews....3387356,00.html
http://www.bbc.com/n...e-east-11462635

More double standard hypocrisy from the Zionist crowd where Israel gets away with it but the Palestinians are uniquely not allowed.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
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#6    and then

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:24 PM

View PostYamato, on 14 July 2014 - 10:43 PM, said:

The IDF uses human shields too.   So that's not a valid reason to pick sides here either.

By rabbi decree, "openly":
http://www.haaretz.c...hields-1.320311

Gotta put it in quotes though when Israel does it:
http://www.haaretz.c...za-war-1.264652

We can go on and on.
http://mondoweiss.ne...ian-shield.html
http://www.btselem.o...s_in_beit_hanun
http://www.ynetnews....3387356,00.html
http://www.bbc.com/n...e-east-11462635

More double standard hypocrisy from the Zionist crowd where Israel gets away with it but the Palestinians are uniquely not allowed.
Now THERE's a really pertinent comparison to what the Hamas are doing .... pffft....

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  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#7    Yamato

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 11:30 PM

End the siege and give Gazans the liberty they need to affect political reform.   When you're under blockade or occupation by a foreign power, you don't have that either.   Maybe after Israel take its Zionist boot off their necks, they'll vote for a more ZIonist-approved regime.

But not before.   We're long past done repeating the same thing over and over again and like insane shills, expecting a different result.   It's either genocide or a reversal of the terrorist Zionist policies on Gaza and the West Bank.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#8    Earl.Of.Trumps

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 08:19 AM

View Postand then, on 14 July 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

http://palwatch.org/...57&doc_id=12019

If they are not using these civilians to protect their firing positions then why  is their presence in a KNOWN killzone necessary?



The last time the Pals ran out of their homes to get away from a war zone, the thieving zionists stole their homes.

Or so you zoinists say

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#9    RoofGardener

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 08:27 AM

View PostYamato, on 14 July 2014 - 11:30 PM, said:

End the siege and give Gazans the liberty they need to affect political reform.  
How, precisely, do we give the Gazans the abovementioned liberty ? They are currently under military occupation by HAMAS, a violent theocratic totalitarian regime that will not permit political reform.  After all, by their own constitution, their politics are rooted in scripture, which cannot be changed.

Or are you suggesting we invade Gaza in order to liberate it's citizenship from HAMAS ?

"We rejected freedom yesterday, we rejected freedom today and we reject your freedom tomorrow," Sufyan Bada, "moderate" Australian Muslim Leader, commenting on the Charlie Hebdo murders and the concept of "freedom of speech". So when they come for YOUR freedom, you can't claim you didn't know what they stood for.

#10    Yamato

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 08:48 AM

View PostRoofGardener, on 15 July 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

How, precisely, do we give the Gazans the abovementioned liberty ? They are currently under military occupation by HAMAS, a violent theocratic totalitarian regime that will not permit political reform.  After all, by their own constitution, their politics are rooted in scripture, which cannot be changed.

Or are you suggesting we invade Gaza in order to liberate it's citizenship from HAMAS ?
The ideal outline would be:
Step 1:  Get the Israelis out of Palestine.
Step 2:  Send in global peacekeepers for a mission that will probably last 100 yearsg.  Some degree of disarmament of Israel and the Palestinian territories is probably necessary, and a mutual guarantee of non-violence.
Step 3:  Establish Palestine's statehood.
I think we need to turn diplomacy up to full for all the neighbors and stay in constant communication with everyone and try our best to be honest arbiters of a win-win proposition for everyone.  There's still the issue of contiguity, Jerusalem, redrawing the lines on the map, and so much more.

The Charter again, ho boy.  :wacko:  

You seem to keep repeating the same tired old circle of objections in every discussion about Israel no matter what the topic is.   No, the Charter is no reason to pick sides either.   Israel's govt has zero tolerance for the Arab state west of the Jordan River and everything including the map should tell you that.  Yes, including the words in the damned Charter.

And now you're slipping in this "rooted in scripture" crap.   Plenty of things are rooted in scripture, bud.  You don't get to point your finger and tell anyone in the world what's allowed and what isn't.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#11    RoofGardener

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 10:43 AM

View PostYamato, on 15 July 2014 - 08:48 AM, said:

The ideal outline would be:
Step 1:  Get the Israelis out of Palestine.
By which I assume you mean the "occupied territories" ?

Quote

Step 2:  Send in global peacekeepers for a mission that will probably last 100 yearsg.  Some degree of disarmament of Israel and the Palestinian territories is probably necessary, and a mutual guarantee of non-violence.
Step 3:  Establish Palestine's statehood.
I think we need to turn diplomacy up to full for all the neighbors and stay in constant communication with everyone and try our best to be honest arbiters of a win-win proposition for everyone.  There's still the issue of contiguity, Jerusalem, redrawing the lines on the map, and so much more.
A two-state solution imposed by armed peacekeepers, with authority to USE their weapons ? Yes... I could see that working.... sort of.

Unfortunately, HAMAS and the PLO do not WANT a two-state solution; they want the destruction of Israel. So firstly those two groups would have to be marginalised politically. Even then, they would mobilise the Palestinian population against the peacekeepers. Those peacekeepers better have thick skins, because within months every human rights organisation on the planet will be calling them baby-killers and murderers... because they WILL find themselves using live ammunition against "unarmed" Palestinian teenagers.

Quote

The Charter again, ho boy.  :wacko:  

You seem to keep repeating the same tired old circle of objections in every discussion about Israel no matter what the topic is.   No, the Charter is no reason to pick sides either.   Israel's govt has zero tolerance for the Arab state west of the Jordan River and everything including the map should tell you that.  Yes, including the words in the damned Charter.

And now you're slipping in this "rooted in scripture" crap.   Plenty of things are rooted in scripture, bud.  You don't get to point your finger and tell anyone in the world what's allowed and what isn't.
You havn't READ the HAMAS covenant (charter), have you ?
You criticise Israel, without even having the courtesy to understand the goals and motivations of their opposition.
And it IS rooted in scripture, as you would have known if you had bothered to read it. Permit me to quote four articles.

Quote

Article 1
The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement's programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man. It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps.

Article 2
The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Moslem Brotherhood in Palestine. Moslem Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgement, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.

Article 5
Time extent of the Islamic Resistance Movement: By adopting Islam as its way of life, the Movement goes back to the time of the birth of the Islamic message, of the righteous ancestor, for Allah is its target, the Prophet is its example and the Koran is its constitution....

Article 8
Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

Sufficiently scripture-bound for you, Yamato ?

Oh, and whill'st we're on the topic of HAMAS and their covenant, lets see what they have to say about Palestine.

Quote

Article 11
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?
This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.

Oh DEAR... doesn't leave much room for compromise, does it ? Well, who knows... perhaps the UN will change their minds ? Lets see what they have to say about that !

Quote

Article 14
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement......

Oh.. well.. thats THAT then.

"We rejected freedom yesterday, we rejected freedom today and we reject your freedom tomorrow," Sufyan Bada, "moderate" Australian Muslim Leader, commenting on the Charlie Hebdo murders and the concept of "freedom of speech". So when they come for YOUR freedom, you can't claim you didn't know what they stood for.

#12    Frank Merton

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 10:49 AM

The more I see events in the Middle East the more I become persuaded that the culture there is such that they should not be allowed to govern themselves, for their own good and that of the rest of the world.  Maybe in a few centuries they will grow up, but just look at the suffering they impose on themselves in Gaza and Iraq and so on.


#13    Yamato

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 11:33 AM

View PostRoofGardener, on 15 July 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

By which I assume you mean the "occupied territories" ?


A two-state solution imposed by armed peacekeepers, with authority to USE their weapons ? Yes... I could see that working.... sort of.

Unfortunately, HAMAS and the PLO do not WANT a two-state solution; they want the destruction of Israel. So firstly those two groups would have to be marginalised politically. Even then, they would mobilise the Palestinian population against the peacekeepers. Those peacekeepers better have thick skins, because within months every human rights organisation on the planet will be calling them baby-killers and murderers... because they WILL find themselves using live ammunition against "unarmed" Palestinian teenagers.


You havn't READ the HAMAS covenant (charter), have you ?
You criticise Israel, without even having the courtesy to understand the goals and motivations of their opposition.
And it IS rooted in scripture, as you would have known if you had bothered to read it. Permit me to quote four articles.


Sufficiently scripture-bound for you, Yamato ?

Oh, and whill'st we're on the topic of HAMAS and their covenant, lets see what they have to say about Palestine.



Oh DEAR... doesn't leave much room for compromise, does it ? Well, who knows... perhaps the UN will change their minds ? Lets see what they have to say about that !



Oh.. well.. thats THAT then.
Punishing millions of innocent people over words some unknown bureaucrat wrote down is the most titanically asinine solution to a problem I've ever heard of.

But when the ruling party in the Israeli government says No Palestine in its charter, that's fine with you because it's not rooted in scripture?   What is it rooted in?  Evil?  Greed?   Bloodlust?   Racism?   What's so holier than thou about Israel's intolerance and terror?

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#14    RavenHawk

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 12:18 PM

View PostYamato, on 15 July 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Punishing millions of innocent people over words some unknown bureaucrat wrote down is the most titanically asinine solution to a problem I've ever heard of.
Like Resolution 181?  How does giving land solve the problem?

Quote

But when the ruling party in the Israeli government says No Palestine in its charter, that's fine with you because it's not rooted in scripture?   What is it rooted in?  Evil?  Greed?   Bloodlust?   Racism?   What's so holier than thou about Israel's intolerance and terror?
Still playing the Ahmadinejad Gambit?  It's not "No Palestine", it's protecting itself from enemies.  Can you put your hatred aside for one minute?  Have you ever thought this out?  What do you think will happen if Resolution 181 or even 242 is *forced* onto both parties?  Do you have any inkling of what is in store?  You just want to keep the misery going on millions of people, Jew and Palestinian alike so you can spew your hatred of Israel.

Edited by RavenHawk, 15 July 2014 - 01:16 PM.

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#15    RoofGardener

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 12:40 PM

View PostYamato, on 15 July 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Punishing millions of innocent people over words some unknown bureaucrat wrote down is the most titanically asinine solution to a problem I've ever heard of.
I'm not punishing them. HAMAS is. Based on its operating principles, as enshrined in its covenant. Why are you so resistant to recognising what a truly evil organisation HAMAS is ? Why do you keep up this invidious comparison with the Israeli government(s) ?

Quote

But when the ruling party in the Israeli government says No Palestine in its charter, that's fine with you because it's not rooted in scripture?   What is it rooted in?  Evil?  Greed?   Bloodlust?   Racism?   What's so holier than thou about Israel's intolerance and terror?
Do they REALLY say that ? If they do, then that is very bad, and would certainly colour my opinions (already somewhat low) of the Likud party (and its allies). Can you show me the current charter that says "No Palestine" ?

Edited by RoofGardener, 15 July 2014 - 12:41 PM.

"We rejected freedom yesterday, we rejected freedom today and we reject your freedom tomorrow," Sufyan Bada, "moderate" Australian Muslim Leader, commenting on the Charlie Hebdo murders and the concept of "freedom of speech". So when they come for YOUR freedom, you can't claim you didn't know what they stood for.




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