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Did Jesus survive the crucifixion?

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#31    Dash--

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 10:39 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 18 July 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

The one main factor that was unconventional regarding JC's case as told (according to the opinions of researchers and numerous material published that I have read) was JC's 'body' was allowed to be claimed ... the usual SOP is no one is even allowed anywhere near those executed or their remains ... families, relatives, brothers in arms or even those wishing to offer religious rites for the dead ...

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#32    DieChecker

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 12:35 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 18 July 2014 - 04:53 PM, said:

I didn't mean the Romans couldn't make well crafted / made crucifixes ... just that there was no need for it as its used only once and it is done ...
I've never seen a source that said they didn't reuse the crucifixes. Do you have a reference for that, or is it an opinion? Either way, I'm just curious.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#33    DieChecker

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 12:41 AM

It is Islam where they are taught that Judas was substituted for Jesus...

Quote

Surah 4:157-158

“And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure. Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.”

http://www.fortresso...s-on-the-cross/

Also appears to come out of the Gnostic Gospel of Barnabas...

Quote

The Gospel of  Barnabas was written by an Ebonite and is an epistle that was rejected as being scripture by the early saints.  It says:

“Truly I say that the voice, the face, and the person of Judas were so like to Jesus, that his disciples and believers entirely believed that he was Jesus; wherefore some departed from the doctrine of Jesus, believing that Jesus had been a false prophet, and that by art magic he had done the miracles which he did: for Jesus had said that he should not die till near the end of the world; for that at that time he should be taken away from the world.”  (Barnabas 217:14)


Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#34    docyabut2

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 08:59 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 19 July 2014 - 12:41 AM, said:

It is Islam where they are taught that Judas was substituted for Jesus...

http://www.fortresso...s-on-the-cross/

Also appears to come out of the Gnostic Gospel of Barnabas...

At the meetings his disciples didn't even recognize him, his body was so swollen and disfigured from his injuries, there for giving droughts to many that it was really Jesus.


#35    jaylemurph

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 09:18 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 19 July 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

At the meetings his disciples didn't even recognize him, his body was so swollen and disfigured from his injuries, there for giving droughts to many that it was really Jesus.

They seemed to have left that bit out of all four gospels.

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#36    docyabut2

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 12:24 AM

View Postjaylemurph, on 19 July 2014 - 09:18 PM, said:

They seemed to have left that bit out of all four gospels.

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Matthew28; 17
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted it was Jesus


Mark 16:12-13, Jesus “appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country.


John 21, “Jesus on the shore; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus


#37    jaylemurph

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 02:31 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 20 July 2014 - 12:24 AM, said:

Matthew28; 17
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted it was Jesus


Mark 16:12-13, Jesus “appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country.


John 21, “Jesus on the shore; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus

Ohh. I thought when you said "droughts", you meant droughts. Silly me. But you know, Jesus once threw a temper tantrum because a fig tree wasn't in fruit, so such petty acts of vengeance aren't completely out of character for the Almighty.

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#38    DieChecker

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 05:42 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 19 July 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

At the meetings his disciples didn't even recognize him, his body was so swollen and disfigured from his injuries, there for giving droughts to many that it was really Jesus.
I had to read that a couple times... "Therefore giving doubts..."

I don't think it says his body was swollen and disfigured anywhere. But he was supposed to be dead and so people did not expect to see him. Some doubted and Jesus told them to put their hand into his side (where the spear pierced him) as proof it was Him.

The reason in part of the post-resurrection part of the OT that people did not recognize Jesus, was because Jesus did not want to be recognized by they at that point. The man could raise the dead and transform matter. I don't think a little mental (or physical) illusion of a different appearance was beyond him.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#39    jmccr8

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 06:24 AM

I thought that they didn't recognize him because he had been glorified so it that is so I may have looked glorified on several occasions given your description. :w00t:

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#40    docyabut2

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:19 AM

Sorry for the missing spelling:( , did mean doubts. But Jesus had to appear so grotesque after all those injuries to his body, that people didn't recognize him; he even said to Mary don't touch me for I have yet descended to my father in other words he was dying.

Edited by docyabut2, 20 July 2014 - 11:23 AM.


#41    DieChecker

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 08:50 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 20 July 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

he even said to Mary don't touch me for I have yet descended to my father in other words he was dying.

If you don't mind my asking, where does that come from? The Gospel of Mary? It is not from the 4 main Gospels. Mary speaks to Jesus (post-resurrection) only in one and she initially takes him for a gardener, not a corpse.

John 20:13-17

Quote

13 They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?”

“They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.” 14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”

Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”

16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.”

She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).

17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

https://www.biblegat... 20&version=NIV

Edited by DieChecker, 20 July 2014 - 08:51 PM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#42    third_eye

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 04:05 AM

View PostDash--, on 18 July 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

Joseph of Arimathaea was said to be a rich man,and Philo mentions that Pilate wasn't above taking bribes.

Probable ~ but done in such a manner recorded in the gospels would just give Pilate a whole lot of explaining to do when news reached Rome ~ JC was executed as an enemy of ROME not just crimes in Jerusalem if I understand it correctly ~ anyhow that's just what I have read ... not particularly well read on the 'purely historical' context come to think of it ~


View PostDieChecker, on 19 July 2014 - 12:35 AM, said:

I've never seen a source that said they didn't reuse the crucifixes. Do you have a reference for that, or is it an opinion? Either way, I'm just curious.

I wouldn't know where to reference it truth be told ~ but it is implied ~ implicitly even ~

Quote

'Although the ancient Jewish historian Josephus, as well as other sources, refers to the crucifixion of thousands of people by the Romans, there is only a single archaeological discovery of a crucified body dating back to the Roman Empire around the time of Jesus. This was discovered in Jerusalem in 1968. It is not necessarily surprising that there is only one such discovery, because a crucified body was usually left to decay on the cross and therefore would not be preserved. The only reason these archaeological remains were preserved was because family members gave this particular individual a customary burial.

(emphasis mine)
but it also states that customary burials though rare ~ does occur ~ :)


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' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
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#43    jaylemurph

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 04:18 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 21 July 2014 - 04:05 AM, said:

Sorry for the missing spelling:( , did mean doubts. But Jesus had to appear so grotesque after all those injuries to his body, that people didn't recognize him; he even said to Mary don't touch me for I have yet descended to my father in other words he was dying.

I try not to make fun of anyone's grammar or language skills (unless they get all snarky about it themselves and then make amusing errors), but this was just too well set up. I just love the idea of Jesus as a b****y queen. "You don't like my gospel of love and acceptance? Fine. I'll smite you and your little dog with glitter."

--Jaylemurph

"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

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#44    third_eye

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 04:21 AM

View Postjaylemurph, on 21 July 2014 - 04:18 AM, said:

I try not to make fun of anyone's grammar or language skills (unless they get all snarky about it themselves and then make amusing errors), but this was just too well set up. I just love the idea of Jesus as a b****y queen. "You don't like my gospel of love and acceptance? Fine. I'll smite you and your little dog with glitter."

--Jaylemurph

That quote wasn't from my post ~ you kinda lost me here ~ multi quote all mixed up somewhere ?

~ edit : I see it now you Quoted DieChecker post #41 to my post #42 ~

Edited by third_eye, 21 July 2014 - 04:22 AM.

Quote

' ... life and death carry on as they always have ~ and always will, only the dreamer is gone ~ behind the flow of imagination, beyond any effort to be still
dancing in the ebb and flow of attention, more present than the breath, I find the origins of my illusions, only the dreamer is gone ~ the dream never ends
'

GIFTS WITH NO GIVER - a love affair with truth ~ Poems by Nirmala

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer


#45    DieChecker

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 07:39 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 21 July 2014 - 04:05 AM, said:

Quote

'Although the ancient Jewish historian Josephus, as well as other sources, refers to the crucifixion of thousands of people by the Romans, there is only a single archaeological discovery of a crucified body dating back to the Roman Empire around the time of Jesus. This was discovered in Jerusalem in 1968. It is not necessarily surprising that there is only one such discovery, because a crucified body was usually left to decay on the cross and therefore would not be preserved. The only reason these archaeological remains were preserved was because family members gave this particular individual a customary burial.

wiki link

That could very well be true. The only reference saying that they took them down for the Sabboth was in John 19:33. It does say it was a High Day, so maybe it was not a weekly happening?

Also your quote says that relatives took the body and buried it. And I suspect that if Joseph of Aramethia had not collected Jesus' body, someone would have. He was not a common thief after all.

Quote

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
https://www.biblegat... 19&version=KJV

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker





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