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Communism, socialism and morality


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#1    OverSword

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 06:58 PM

“UNDER capitalism”, ran the old Soviet-era joke, “man exploits man. Under communism it is just the opposite.” In fact new research suggests that the Soviet system inspired not just sarcasm but cheating too: in East Germany, at least, communism appears to have inculcated moral laxity.

Lars Hornuf of the University of Munich and Dan Ariely, Ximena García-Rada and Heather Mann of Duke University ran an experiment last year to test Germans’ willingness to lie for personal gain. Some 250 Berliners were randomly selected to take part in a game where they could win up to €6 ($8).

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#2    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:10 PM

Lol at how desperate people seem to be getting to have a go at Obama.

If, as it seems, we are in the process of becoming a totalitarian society in which the state apparatus is all-powerful, the ethics most important for the survival of the true, free, human individual would be: cheat, lie, evade, fake it, be elsewhere, forge documents, build improved electronic gadgets in your garage that’ll outwit the gadgets used by the authorities.

- Philip K. Dick.


#3    redhen

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:10 PM

View PostOverSword, on 22 July 2014 - 06:58 PM, said:

“UNDER capitalism”, ran the old Soviet-era joke, “man exploits man. Under communism it is just the opposite.” In fact new research suggests that the Soviet system inspired not just sarcasm but cheating too

I'll buy that. Under the Soviet system, the workers pretended to work and the government pretended to pay them.


#4    quiXilver

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:11 PM

those traits have nothing to do with political leanings....
that's just human energy

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#5    OverSword

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:13 PM

View PostAdmiral Rhubarb, on 22 July 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

Lol at how desperate people seem to be getting to have a go at Obama.
Obama or America are never once mentioned in that article. The experiment found the following:
The authors found that, on average, those who had East German roots cheated twice as much as those who had grown up in West Germany under capitalism. They also looked at how much time people had spent in East Germany before the fall of the Berlin Wall. The longer the participants had been exposed to socialism, the greater the likelihood that they would claim improbable numbers of high rolls.


#6    OverSword

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:14 PM

View PostquiXilver, on 22 July 2014 - 07:11 PM, said:

those traits have nothing to do with political leanings....
that's just human energy
It's not political leanings, it's social environment.  Are you going to try to claim that environment has no influence on a persons overall character?


#7    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:36 PM

View PostOverSword, on 22 July 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

Obama or America are never once mentioned in that article. The experiment found the following:
The authors found that, on average, those who had East German roots cheated twice as much as those who had grown up in West Germany under capitalism. They also looked at how much time people had spent in East Germany before the fall of the Berlin Wall. The longer the participants had been exposed to socialism, the greater the likelihood that they would claim improbable numbers of high rolls.
The subtle allusion to socialism was nothing to do with the Great Man then. :innocent:

If, as it seems, we are in the process of becoming a totalitarian society in which the state apparatus is all-powerful, the ethics most important for the survival of the true, free, human individual would be: cheat, lie, evade, fake it, be elsewhere, forge documents, build improved electronic gadgets in your garage that’ll outwit the gadgets used by the authorities.

- Philip K. Dick.


#8    Ashotep

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 07:40 PM

It does seem to say that those raised under communism lie more and have more lax morals.  Maybe its because under communism you had to.  Even if you aren't living under communism anymore old habits die hard.


#9    Purifier

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:14 PM

I don't have problem with capitalism or socialism in theory. The problem I have is with the people who try to manipulate either one and try to control either one for their own personal gain. Who can you trust to do right with either one in place?


And it seems to me the U.S. has got a mixture of both now, but it's all corrupted on many levels. Does anybody else see that?

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#10    quiXilver

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:12 PM

I'm no longer surprised by the lack of trust and abuse of power in any organization/political system.  To lead requires power.  Those who desire, seek and achieve power of control over others, require aggressive, violent, manipulative, psychotic/socio-pathic tendencies in order to succeed and maintain.

In any political, religious, or grass roots organization, if the person/s in authority do not possess, display and master these skills/traits, they do not maintain their authority for long.  It's inherent to the structure and is compounded by the size of the organization and the mindset of the culture.  In this case, on this level, I see very little difference in east/west.

If kept small enough, the inherently negative aspects of leadership can be held in balance with a bit more success.  But any large or wildly successful organization is going to be rife with psychotic tendencies, due to the nature of the people attracted to the positions of highest authority and the requirements of maintaining that authority.  There is always another one waiting to knock off the king.  The Sword of Damocles is ever-present.

I see this not being the norm on all levels and in all locations; there are, of course, always exceptions.  But the overall culture of leadership and control in east and west, both display a deep psychosis from my perspective.

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#11    White Crane Feather

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 02:12 AM

The problem of course is that economic behavior is an ingrained genetics trait, you can watch it in the way protozoan behave, wild animals, and humans. They key to the most prosperous economics was always to  meld human behavior with the right controls to not let it over run everything else. We do this with math an research just like we do with a space program. Until we fully get this concept we will falter and chaos and ecology will resume.

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#12    jugoso

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 02:29 PM

From article:

Quote

when it comes to ethics, a capitalist upbringing appears to trump a socialist one

Uh-oh.....I guess we are all in big trouble.

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Free your mind and you ass will follow.
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#13    DeWitz

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 03:42 PM

Factor this in, if you will: Germany's prime minister Angela Merkel is the daughter of a (formerly East) German Lutheran pastor. Just think about that. . . lying, lax morals. . .Eh, I guess it doesn't mean a thing, after all. . .

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#14    quiXilver

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:16 PM

View PostDeWitz, on 23 July 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Factor this in, if you will: Germany's prime minister Angela Merkel is the daughter of a (formerly East) German Lutheran pastor. Just think about that. . . lying, lax morals. . .Eh, I guess it doesn't mean a thing, after all. . .

sounds like the perfect prep school for a modern politician...

Unknowingly, we plow the dust of stars, blown about us by the wind and drink the universe in a glass of rain. ~ Ihab Hassan
You never change things by fighting the existing reality.  To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ~R. Buckminster Fuller
Just because you thought it, or felt it deeply, doesn't make it real, true or important.  Don't believe everything you think... ~ Creighton Larson
Everything you Love and Everything you Hate, come from the Same Source:  ~Creighton Larson

#15    quiXilver

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 04:24 PM

Considering that American politics is utterly dominated by 'christians' and given our current state of morality in politics.
This doesn't bode very well for the claim of the moral fiber woven into Christianity's world view.

In the end, what is right is what is right because it's right and this does not stem from any political or religious thinking.
Religious thinking is the attempt by people to explain why what is right is right.
It's an attempted, in my opinion very misguided descriptor, not the source.

Unknowingly, we plow the dust of stars, blown about us by the wind and drink the universe in a glass of rain. ~ Ihab Hassan
You never change things by fighting the existing reality.  To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete. ~R. Buckminster Fuller
Just because you thought it, or felt it deeply, doesn't make it real, true or important.  Don't believe everything you think... ~ Creighton Larson
Everything you Love and Everything you Hate, come from the Same Source:  ~Creighton Larson




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