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Russia commits act of war.


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#1    danielost

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 02:21 AM

Russian troops attacked Ukrainian military targets from with in Russia.  Mean while Obama golfs

http://www.usatoday....raine/13108615/

Is Ukraine a USA ally or not.

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#2    DeWitz

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 02:41 AM

Every president has done his share of golfing through conflicts, and other extracurricular activities, to boot. But you raise a good point about the U.S.-Ukraine relationship. The problem is that any military maneuvers, including re-positioning carriers or other shadow-boxing, will only further inflame what is already a shooting war (clearly within what realpolitik practitioners would deem Russia's sphere of influence).

A pertinent reference in recent global history: Hungary, 1956--Eisenhower did virtually nothing to support the freedom fighters; a similar situation prevailed in the Prague Spring, Czechoslovakia, 1968. Under Republicans or Democrats, the US has not always come to the aid of liberation movements. The Bay of Pigs may be analogous in this regard, also.

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#3    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 08:14 AM

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It must be true, i read it in the paper.

is Ukraine a US Ally? Well, that's why the current government was put in place, the one that was put in place by a right-wing coup backed by certain "Western intelligence agencies" (see if we can guess what they might be), so that Ukraine would become another conveniently situated satellite of the West, though I'm not sure I'd want Ukraine as an ally. Certainly their allegiances have traditionally been pretty flexible, throwing their lot in with the Germans after the Revolution and quite a lot of them welcomed the German "Liberators" in '41, and many fought alongside them.

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#4    keithisco

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:36 AM

View PostAdmiral Rhubarb, on 25 July 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

It must be true, i read it in the paper.

is Ukraine a US Ally? Well, that's why the current government was put in place, the one that was put in place by a right-wing coup backed by certain "Western intelligence agencies" (see if we can guess what they might be), so that Ukraine would become another conveniently situated satellite of the West, though I'm not sure I'd want Ukraine as an ally. Certainly their allegiances have traditionally been pretty flexible, throwing their lot in with the Germans after the Revolution and quite a lot of them welcomed the German "Liberators" in '41, and many fought alongside them.
Did I "dream" the National Elections of 25 May 2014 which returned a reformist President (Petro Poroshenko)? Is he not a "centrist" politician who campaigned on a platform of eradicating corruption? Did he win 54.7% of the Popular vote?  Yep... I must have dreamed the whole thing.....


#5    RabidMongoose

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:57 AM

View Postdanielost, on 25 July 2014 - 02:21 AM, said:

Russian troops attacked Ukrainian military targets from with in Russia.  Mean while Obama golfs

http://www.usatoday....raine/13108615/

Is Ukraine a USA ally or not.

It isnt a black and white conflict in the Ukraine. The country is ex-Soviet, many sections of it were historically part of Russia and a lot of Russians live in the disbuted areas. Against this backdrop the west wishes to ignore that EU membership polarises Ukranian society.

I think all sides should be mature about it and have a peaceful, amicable, divorce. Do we really need 100,000 people dead before the same outcome is achieved?

Russian isn't a weak power that US or NATO can defeat in war. It has nuclear weapons! If we annnoy them enough then many households across the EU will go cold this winter and have no petrol to put in their cars. We also risk solidifying their relationship with the Chinese and Iranians.


#6    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 10:09 AM

View Postkeithisco, on 25 July 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

Did I "dream" the National Elections of 25 May 2014 which returned a reformist President (Petro Poroshenko)? Is he not a "centrist" politician who campaigned on a platform of eradicating corruption? Did he win 54.7% of the Popular vote?  Yep... I must have dreamed the whole thing.....
No "Centrist" politician (one that was chosen because the West approved of him) would possibly be able to bring the two mutually antagonistic elements together in harmony. From whom did he win 54/7 % of the popular Vote? from those who wanted "closer ties with the West", of course. How many of the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine and Crimea voted for him? it's only those who want what he wants (or was put in place to do as he's instructed by the West) that voted for him.
Let's ignore all the complexities, they're not important right now. the important thing is that poor plucky little Ukraine is being persecuted by a Monster.

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#7    danielost

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 10:33 AM

Did I not hear them say that the elected president was pro-russia.  Didn't he run away from his job.  Isn't he now  living in Russia .  Or did in dream all of that up.

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#8    hellwyr

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 12:10 PM

LOL.

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#9    redhen

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 12:55 PM

View Postdanielost, on 25 July 2014 - 02:21 AM, said:

Is Ukraine a USA ally or not.

The Ukraine is not part of NATO (yet), thus we have no legal obligation to help them.


#10    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 02:02 PM

View Postdanielost, on 25 July 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Did I not hear them say that the elected president was pro-russia.  Didn't he run away from his job.  Isn't he now  living in Russia .  Or did in dream all of that up.
Yanukovych? Yes, he was the one who was toppled in the coup- er, sorry, I mean, Popular Uprising against a Tyrant.

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#11    Red Moon

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 02:03 PM

Are the Ukraine leaders fascists btw?

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#12    stevewinn

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 03:57 PM

View PostRose-Red Howler, on 25 July 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

Are the Ukraine leaders fascists btw?

All depends if they are Pro EU. then NO, - but if they are Anti EU they are fascists tyrants and need to be removed etc.... then YES.

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#13    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 03:59 PM

View PostRose-Red Howler, on 25 July 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

Are the Ukraine leaders fascists btw?
Of course not. Just like any other nation, they have a small share of extremists, but they're marginal. Main parties are just normal parties with normal platforms you see all around civilised world. The most bizarrely extreme are communists, not fascists (though I challenge couch lefties to prove the difference between the two). Ukrainian parliament inherited actual communists from the former, puppet-Russian government. Now the elections are about happen and something tells me there won't be much actual soviets left, hampering Ukrainian democracy in favour of Russian hegemony.  

Only current Russian government’s suck-ups and paid shills are spreading the insane, easy to debunk, disinformation about fascists in power.
It's even worse when they offend whole Ukrainian nation by calling them simply fascists. I know how it feels, because Serbs used the same slurs and excuses, same techniques of special and actual war against my country and our neighbouring Bosnia&Herzegovina.

Ukrainians were tired of post-Soviet Russian rule, worried with political reverse in which Russia is today (back to aggressive collectivism combined with Russian hegemony), impoverished by Yanukovich who drained all Ukrainian finances to Russia, keeping a chunk of money for his modest (golden toilet, tens of mllions of US dollars in cash loaded in vans when he fled to Russia etc.) needs...
Maidan movement was started by students who protested against destruction of Ukrainian economy and forceful halting of Ukrainian opening to Europe in favour of returning to USSR, now hidden behind names Russian federation and customs union.
Soon it turned into general uprising because everyone knew and felt on their own skin what goes on in Ukraine. People did not want to go quietly back to gulags.

Russia had few absolutely perfect opportunities to drop the violent strategy and simply start negotiating new, more just relations with new Ukrainian government.
To my own dismay too (my nation shares great deal of history with Ukrainians), Putin chose to try destabilizing Ukraine, so Russia can annex parts (see Crimea) or even whole country, instead of returning full sovereignty to Ukraine and making just business, political and other deals.
The most tragic part is that Russian and Ukrainian are brotherly nations. Literally.
It’s like having two brothers, each owning a home. They’re also first neighbours. And there was long, rich and at times horrifying history going on, but they’re still brothers and understand each other.
Now the Russian brother got the upper hand – not to bother you with the whole chain of historic events – and started belittling the Ukrainian brother, stealing from him and threatening to beat the crap out of him if he ever tries resisting.
No matter how much you love your brother, if he behaves like an ******* for years and shows no intention of coming back to his senses, you’ll have to stand up to him. That’s essentially what happens in Ukraine today.

There’s still time for Russia to stop the attempts to destroy Ukraine and instead of trying to force Ukraine into resurrected USSR starts new chapter of good, sane relations.  
Everyone would benefit from that, but that’s precisely why it can’t be – some people don’t want everyone to live happily ever after, they want to boss around even if it means everyone will lose.

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#14    keithisco

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 05:38 PM

View Poststevewinn, on 25 July 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

All depends if they are Pro EU. then NO, - but if they are Anti EU they are fascists tyrants and need to be removed etc.... then YES.
But the Admiral (Rhubarb) is saying that the duly elected (recognised by Moscow) government of Ukraine is Pro -EU and yet is STILL Fascist.  You cant win anything when faced with such clear ambiguity (just realised that "clear ambiguity" is an oxymoron :unsure2: )

The people voted under the terms of Universal Suffrage, the Eastern Ukrainian, Russian supported, population were threatened NOT to vote - pain of death scenario - by Russian immigrants so just who are the Fascists in Ukraine? The common people, or the criminals and thugs in eastern Ukraine being supplied and emboldened by Putin?

The UK has very large immigrant populations - what would happen if they decided to break away from the UK and declare sovereignty to another nation? Fantastic as it sounds, is it really a million miles away from the future?


#15    hellwyr

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 06:57 PM

View PostRose-Red Howler, on 25 July 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

Are the Ukraine leaders fascists btw?

yes. Svobododa held major positions. Also the rethoric and mentality is fascist

If you aknowledge the ucraien "elections" you also have to aknowledge eastern Ucraine vote for independence and the Crimean vote.

Also I don`t have any smpathy for anyone who tries to control "their" country with force (aka Ucraien government) and who supresses its inhabitans.

Edited by hellwyr, 25 July 2014 - 06:58 PM.

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