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Obama’s experiment goes badly wrong


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#1    questionmark

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 04:46 PM

Washington Post said:


A stunning unfolding of international crises, from Iraq to Ukraine to Syria to Gaza, has prompted some less-than-edifying Washington debate: It’s all President Obama’s fault. No, it’s not his fault at all.

It would be a pity if partisan fervor kept us from learning from recent events, because in fact the available lessons are stark: We have witnessed as close to a laboratory experiment on the effects of U.S. disengagement as the real world is ever likely to provide.

Obama openly and deliberately adopted a strategy, not of isolationism, but of gradual withdrawal, especially from Europe and the Middle East. He argued that America should concentrate on “nation-building here at home.” He espoused a pivot to Asia, on the grounds that the Pacific region was the world’s most dynamic and deserving of U.S. military and diplomatic attention. (“Here, we see the future,” Obama told Australia’s parliament.)

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#2    and then

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Posted 28 July 2014 - 05:23 PM

A very well written and thoughtful look at what happens when a vacuum is created - by anyone - in world power structures.
edited for spelling

Edited by and then, 28 July 2014 - 05:23 PM.

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#3    DieChecker

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 12:08 AM

Whether the results of this "experiment" are positive or negative depends on the point of view. Myself, I favor withdrawal. We should fix up our homeland before going forth to help others again. Fix the borders. Fix our problem with inner city poverty culture. Fix our banking and corporate systems. Fix our reliance on foreign oil. Fix our crippling entitlement system's effect on our budget.

I hate to be unsympathetic, but let these other nations take care of their own business. If they become an actual threat, then act.

Obama has had many issues during his presidency, but withdrawing from the rest of the world, IMHO, is not one of them.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#4    Jeremiah65

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:33 AM

See...from my point of view, he hasn't disconnected nearly enough...it's not from a lack of trying, I tell ya that.

Yemen drones
Libya "air support"
Pakistani drones
Failed attempt to draw the public into Syria's civil war (but pretty sure we "accidentally" armed the rebels)
Trying to get involved in Ukraine now
Eruptions that will cause us to get involved in Iraq (again)

and let's not forget our open door to central and south America...

In my opinion...we are still WAY too involved in places we need not be involved in.

How about....we repair or replace the thousands of bridges that are downgraded or on the verge of collapse?

How about we expand infrastructure in order to more efficiently move goods and improve commerce?

How about instead of giving illegal alien "minors" (I say that and burst into laughter) money and benefits we give it to the legal children of citizens of this country?

How about we make it so Veterans can just go see a doctor (any doctor) and the bill goes to the Pentagon?

If we have so much money to "invest" in wars and nation building afar...why don't the GOV pay back all the money they pilfered from Social Security?

We have no business being involved anywhere till our own closet is cleaned up...and I do not really care who can find empty arguments against that...

Edited by Jeremiah65, 29 July 2014 - 01:34 AM.

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#5    Yamato

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:39 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 29 July 2014 - 12:08 AM, said:

Whether the results of this "experiment" are positive or negative depends on the point of view. Myself, I favor withdrawal. We should fix up our homeland before going forth to help others again. Fix the borders. Fix our problem with inner city poverty culture. Fix our banking and corporate systems. Fix our reliance on foreign oil. Fix our crippling entitlement system's effect on our budget.

I hate to be unsympathetic, but let these other nations take care of their own business. If they become an actual threat, then act.

Obama has had many issues during his presidency, but withdrawing from the rest of the world, IMHO, is not one of them.
So you're voting for Rand Paul, right?

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
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#6    DieChecker

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:31 AM

View PostYamato, on 29 July 2014 - 01:39 AM, said:

So you're voting for Rand Paul, right?
I am very much reading what he is writing. That is all I'll say about that for now.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#7    DieChecker

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 02:32 AM

View PostJeremiah65, on 29 July 2014 - 01:33 AM, said:

If we have so much money to "invest" in wars and nation building afar...why don't the GOV pay back all the money they pilfered from Social Security?

What cracks me up is that Afghanistan gets state of the art roads and bridges and infrastructure (on my dime) and the US highway system is turning into "dirt roads", and THEY freaking attacked US!! (Or, rather, protected those that attacked us.)

Edited by DieChecker, 29 July 2014 - 02:33 AM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#8    coolguy

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 03:24 AM

I hate saying this but if another guy was president there would still be these problems.


#9    Yamato

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 03:29 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 29 July 2014 - 02:32 AM, said:

What cracks me up is that Afghanistan gets state of the art roads and bridges and infrastructure (on my dime) and the US highway system is turning into "dirt roads", and THEY freaking attacked US!! (Or, rather, protected those that attacked us.)
I hope I'm not the only one who's angry that Osama bin Laden is winning.  That was exactly what he was counting on and he was right.  Our policy is always so asinine and counterproductive,  I think bin Laden recognized that and blew the asininity and counterproductivity of it into the stratosphere.  His belief in Allah was surely reaffirmed when the US invaded Iraq.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#10    The Silver Thong

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 03:40 AM

View PostYamato, on 29 July 2014 - 03:29 AM, said:

I hope I'm not the only one who's angry that Osama bin Laden is winning.  That was exactly what he was counting on and he was right.  Our policy is always so asinine and counterproductive,  I think bin Laden recognized that and blew the asininity and counterproductivity of it into the stratosphere.  His belief in Allah was surely reaffirmed when the US invaded Iraq.

Osama accomplished exactly what we wanted. The US fell for it.


edit: the people fell for it.

Edited by The Silver Thong, 29 July 2014 - 03:42 AM.

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#11    aquatus1

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 06:24 AM

How is this an experiment?  Who didn't know exactly what was going to happen?

There is nothing surprising about them fighting over the area.  Why would they have stopped just because we left?

We didn't withdraw because Osama bin fishfood made us. We didn't withdraw because whoever it is we are fighting is too tough.  There is one reason, and one reason alone, that we withdrew.  The people demanded it.  Just like they demanded withdrawal from Vietnam.

Well, they got it.  And, unsurprisingly, what was predicted came to pass.  The people that have been fighting for centuries before we had anything to do with it, for the decades we did have anything to do with it, and probably for a few more decades to come until they deplete the resources they have and make enough enemies out of their allies to not get anything more, kept right on fighting.


#12    Jeremiah65

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:16 PM

View Postaquatus1, on 29 July 2014 - 06:24 AM, said:

How is this an experiment?  Who didn't know exactly what was going to happen?

There is nothing surprising about them fighting over the area.  Why would they have stopped just because we left?

We didn't withdraw because Osama bin fishfood made us. We didn't withdraw because whoever it is we are fighting is too tough.  There is one reason, and one reason alone, that we withdrew.  The people demanded it.  Just like they demanded withdrawal from Vietnam.

Well, they got it.  And, unsurprisingly, what was predicted came to pass.  The people that have been fighting for centuries before we had anything to do with it, for the decades we did have anything to do with it, and probably for a few more decades to come until they deplete the resources they have and make enough enemies out of their allies to not get anything more, kept right on fighting.

Yep...Saddam kept this all in check with an iron fist and that is the ONLY way to keep this stuff in check.  These folks have so much hate for one another in them the only way to keep them in their place is to be worse than the people they hate.

"Liberty means responsibility.  That is why most men dread it."  George Bernard Shaw
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."  Thomas Jefferson

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#13    Beany

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:28 PM

View PostJeremiah65, on 29 July 2014 - 01:33 AM, said:

See...from my point of view, he hasn't disconnected nearly enough...it's not from a lack of trying, I tell ya that.

Yemen drones
Libya "air support"
Pakistani drones
Failed attempt to draw the public into Syria's civil war (but pretty sure we "accidentally" armed the rebels)
Trying to get involved in Ukraine now
Eruptions that will cause us to get involved in Iraq (again)

and let's not forget our open door to central and south America...

In my opinion...we are still WAY too involved in places we need not be involved in.

How about....we repair or replace the thousands of bridges that are downgraded or on the verge of collapse?

How about we expand infrastructure in order to more efficiently move goods and improve commerce?

How about instead of giving illegal alien "minors" (I say that and burst into laughter) money and benefits we give it to the legal children of citizens of this country?

How about we make it so Veterans can just go see a doctor (any doctor) and the bill goes to the Pentagon?

If we have so much money to "invest" in wars and nation building afar...why don't the GOV pay back all the money they pilfered from Social Security?

We have no business being involved anywhere till our own closet is cleaned up...and I do not really care who can find empty arguments against that...

How about we get the House to go along with any of those ideas, which are pretty good?


#14    Jeremiah65

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 01:43 PM

View PostBeany, on 29 July 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

How about we get the House to go along with any of those ideas, which are pretty good?

I agree.

One problem that haunts the idea of "investing in the USA" is the failed stimulus package for "shovel ready jobs"...but that is another topic.

We have real problems here at home and we could re-direct a LOT of money to deal with those things...but this would require us drawing back from the world stage and focusing on our own recovery and "nation building".  They are accusing Obama of this and failing but what I was trying to point out is...he's really not doing that.

The underlying poison here is the corporate agenda...they want that foreign aid to places that hate us...it greases the palms of the leadership in these places and opens the door for the mega corporations to pilfer and plunder their resources on the cheap.

Doesn't matter if it is a Republican or a Democrat at the helm of this ship, the navigators are the Oligarchy and they decide where our attention and our money goes...

"Liberty means responsibility.  That is why most men dread it."  George Bernard Shaw
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."  Thomas Jefferson

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#15    Bama13

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Posted 29 July 2014 - 03:20 PM

I believe that we should have a military presence in many countries. We need Marines to guard our embassies and consulates, don't we? That should be the extent of our presence.

" Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything —you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him" - Robert Heinlein




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