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Arabs gave land to Israel


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#1    the-Unexpected-Soul

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 10:39 AM

one of the most annoying arguments I read around the site is "Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians"

let me breakup why this is such annoying thing to say,

because all of this area is an Arabic/Palestinian land in the first place

if a criminal invaded your apartment and killed many of your family then to show good intentions he gave you back one room to pile you and your family in it, will you accept this at all ? well this is how I feel about it

and this lead us to another question which is if Israel was legal state then that mean Arabs have gave them this land and they thanked them with war and killing,

and if Israel took it by force then it's an illegal state, and why you blame them if they considers you enemies ?

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#2    bubblykiss

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 11:16 AM

Well first it was the Canaanites and then the Israelites took the land as directed by God under Joshua therefore whose land is it now?

And later the Arabs came in and took it by force during the expansion period of Islam.

And then the crusaders, mongols, ottomans, British, french and eventually it was returned to the Jews.

So everybody has a claim to the land.

Therefore, I say give it to the Dutch. That should solve everything.

Edited by bubblykiss, 02 August 2014 - 11:16 AM.

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#3    Sir Smoke aLot

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 11:32 AM

There was a time... Long time ago. When people of the world could have prevented all of this that we see today. But, because they closed their eyes at obvious ethnic cleansing of local Arab population of Palestine this has become something that could be a spark which will turn the world into next world war. I hope that it won't happen and that people will realize that we all wont to live normal life, we are all same in the essence.

No one can make me believe that there is no way to resolve this situation peacefully - 'when there is will there is a way too', as said in one old wise quote.

People ( politicians before everyone else ) don't have the will to make good changes. It's simple as that. More that i talk about this more i get mad at the world because all the world doesn't have strength to save kids lives, and most important, to save those lives, world doesn't have to do it on Israel's expense, it could be done better and people would profit on both sides.

We say we are advanced, let's conquer planet Mars, lets use resources from objects in our Solar System, but why? So we can make more people miserable? Let's sell parcels on the Moon, who has the money he can buy a piece of 'The Sun' for himself, but there is simply not enough money to buy peace in the world while one individual person can have mentioned 'piece of The Sun'. No one gave anything to anyone - that is simple too, there were people there and then the new people came. In next decades those 'new guys' had become major force ( ofc, being backed up by worlds powers, injecting money and weapons in regime ).

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#4    the-Unexpected-Soul

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 12:10 PM

View Postbubblykiss, on 02 August 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

Well first it was the Canaanites

so if the ownership of the land is determent by who was first, then that make it a Canaanites land, and so the people of this day who are most related to the Canaanites are the true owners, and I think palestinians are more related to Canaanites than European Jews

if you want to take religion as the factor then you get nothing because all religions say they own the land

if you consider the modern history and geography of the area you find it exactly at the center of the middle east under an almost 1400 continues years of Islamic/arabic rule, and think about the number, Jesus was born about 2000 years ago

if it's the force that decide who own what, then why should Palestinians be peaceful

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#5    Earl.Of.Trumps

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 07:03 PM

View Postbubblykiss, on 02 August 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

Well first it was the Canaanites and then the Israelites took the land as directed by God under Joshua therefore whose land is it now?

True, the Canaanites were first in the region. The Israelites, Jebesites and others were nothing more than break off groups from the Canaanites, much like the revolutionary Americans were British. So their "ethnicity" - even today, is Canaanite, but that is the Sephardi Jews of the ME, not the European Jews (Ashkenazi) that rule the roost today.


View Postbubblykiss, on 02 August 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

And later the Arabs came in and took it by force during the expansion period of Islam.

By the time of Christ there were two Houses of Israel (of 10) left, the House of Benjamin and the House of Judah. The Babylonians (now Iraqi's) who were neither Arab  nor Muslim, defeated the House of Benjamin, and in 700 AD, defeated the House of Judah (West bank area) ending Israel's reign. After the Muslim faith was founded, the Arabs came in and forced people to become Muslim by taxing people who practiced any other faith. But the Arabs did not "war" on the peoples of Palestine, that is a misnomer. Sometime around 1100, a Roman emperor gave the land its name, Palestine.

View Postbubblykiss, on 02 August 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

And then the crusaders, mongols, ottomans, British, french and eventually it was returned to the Jews.

So everybody has a claim to the land.

Therefore, I say give it to the Dutch. That should solve everything.

LOL! Intersting.

But no one really can claim the land, IMO, more than the people who lived there.
What the UN did was very wrong. You cannot dump 700,000 European Jews into this tiny parcel of land without expecting trouble, and that is all the region has had ever since.

Pity

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#6    Earl.Of.Trumps

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 07:09 PM

View Postthe-Unexpected-Soul, on 02 August 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

so if the ownership of the land is determent by who was first, then that make it a Canaanites land, and so the people of this day who are most related to the Canaanites are the true owners, and I think palestinians are more related to Canaanites than European Jews

if you want to take religion as the factor then you get nothing because all religions say they own the land

if you consider the modern history and geography of the area you find it exactly at the center of the middle east under an almost 1400 continues years of Islamic/arabic rule, and think about the number, Jesus was born about 2000 years ago

if it's the force that decide who own what, then why should Palestinians be peaceful


:yes: And I would say you were right. Shhhhhh... don't tell anyone, it's a secret

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#7    and then

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 07:21 PM

View PostEarl.Of.Trumps, on 02 August 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

True, the Canaanites were first in the region. The Israelites, Jebesites and others were nothing more than break off groups from the Canaanites, much like the revolutionary Americans were British. So their "ethnicity" - even today, is Canaanite, but that is the Sephardi Jews of the ME, not the European Jews (Ashkenazi) that rule the roost today.




By the time of Christ there were two Houses of Israel (of 10) left, the House of Benjamin and the House of Judah. The Babylonians (now Iraqi's) who were neither Arab  nor Muslim, defeated the House of Benjamin, and in 700 AD, defeated the House of Judah (West bank area) ending Israel's reign. After the Muslim faith was founded, the Arabs came in and forced people to become Muslim by taxing people who practiced any other faith. But the Arabs did not "war" on the peoples of Palestine, that is a misnomer. Sometime around 1100, a Roman emperor gave the land its name, Palestine.



LOL! Intersting.

But no one really can claim the land, IMO, more than the people who lived there.
What the UN did was very wrong. You cannot dump 700,000 European Jews into this tiny parcel of land without expecting trouble, and that is all the region has had ever since.

Pity
So of course one must accept the destruction of Israel and displacement of her survivors for "justice" to be restored.  Never gonna happen, old hoss.  Just never.  What WILL happen is that HUGE amounts of blood will continue to be spilled because those around the world who feel superior to Jews want them punished and want the Palestinians to do it.  You picked a loser of a horse in this race.  They are THERE...in the land.... and aren't going to be displaced but instead of putting even marginal pressure on the Palestinian leadership to negotiate in good faith, their supporters keep their hopes of total victory alive by their pronouncements and propaganda.  IMO THEY share in the blame for every drop of blood as much as anyone who supports Israel.

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#8    RoofGardener

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 09:26 PM

View Postthe-Unexpected-Soul, on 02 August 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

one of the most annoying arguments I read around the site is "Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians"

let me breakup why this is such annoying thing to say,

Well, before you do that, can you show me WHERE anybody has suggested - or supported - that statement ?

I'm not aware of ANY thread that argues that "Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians".
I would suggest that no such thread exists, let alone is a frequent argument.

Quote

because all of this area is an Arabic/Palestinian land in the first place

No, it isn't/wasn't.
It was Jewish. Or Roman. Or Babylonian. Or Syrian. Or Jordanian. Or Egyptian. Or British (via the Mandate). Or NOBODIES (as of May, 1948).

Quote

if a criminal invaded your apartment and killed many of your family then to show good intentions he gave you back one room to pile you and your family in it, will you accept this at all ? well this is how I feel about it

and this lead us to another question which is if Israel was legal state then that mean Arabs have gave them this land and they thanked them with war and killing,

and if Israel took it by force then it's an illegal state, and why you blame them if they considers you enemies ?

You can believe whatever you want. You can believe that Elvis is still alive, riding Shergar. But ask yourself this... do the historic facts - in as far as we know them - support your position ?

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#9    Earl.Of.Trumps

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 11:58 PM

View Postand then, on 02 August 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

So of course one must accept the destruction of Israel and displacement of her survivors for "justice" to be restored.

That is not what I was implying at all. The arguments that the Jews had the land first is bogus, and they use that argument a *lot*.

If Joe's lineage has been in America for 10 generations, and my lineage has been here for three generations, does that give Joe the Superior Right to throw me out of America? Where does this idiocy even come from?

THAT is what I was driving at, their senseless drivel about how long Jews have been there. POOF, gone.




View Postand then, on 02 August 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

  Never gonna happen, old hoss.  Just never.  What WILL happen is that HUGE amounts of blood will continue to be spilled because those around the world who feel superior to Jews want them punished and want the Palestinians to do it.  You picked a loser of a horse in this race.

I didn't pick them because I thought they were going to win. I stand by them because they need help to get their human rights restored.



View Postand then, on 02 August 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

  They are THERE...in the land.... and aren't going to be displaced but instead of putting even marginal pressure on the Palestinian leadership to negotiate in good faith, their supporters keep their hopes of total victory alive by their pronouncements and propaganda.  IMO THEY share in the blame for every drop of blood as much as anyone who supports Israel.

And the immediate future...? no. they won't

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#10    and then

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 07:15 AM

View PostEarl.Of.Trumps, on 02 August 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

That is not what I was implying at all. The arguments that the Jews had the land first is bogus, and they use that argument a *lot*.

If Joe's lineage has been in America for 10 generations, and my lineage has been here for three generations, does that give Joe the Superior Right to throw me out of America? Where does this idiocy even come from?

THAT is what I was driving at, their senseless drivel about how long Jews have been there. POOF, gone.






I didn't pick them because I thought they were going to win. I stand by them because they need help to get their human rights restored.





And the immediate future...? no. they won't
And round and round we go.  I'm 53 and I've watched this little drama since Nixon put our nuke forces on alert back in 73.  The song remains the same, it's only the singers who come and go.  The Palestinians seem to have gotten a raw deal - that's life, it happens.  In fact it is far more common than any "fairness" that life normally provides.  In case you hadn't noticed, the Jews got a sizeable chunk of that raw deal too - and for far longer.  It really IS sad that the two cannot come to an accommodation and live side by side.  It will never happen now though.  It's also sad that the rest of the planet is going to get burned by taking sides in this squabble.

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#11    RoofGardener

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 08:36 AM

View PostEarl.Of.Trumps, on 02 August 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

That is not what I was implying at all. The arguments that the Jews had the land first is bogus, and they use that argument a *lot*.

Curiously, I've only ever seen that argument used in this forum for two purposes, and even then infrequently.
1) - To counter the canard that "the land belongs to the palestinians". (by 'land', I'm meaning 'the territory', not individual packages of land).
2) To address the question of "why didn't they build Israel in Canada, or Argentina.. or.... "

Quote

If Joe's lineage has been in America for 10 generations, and my lineage has been here for three generations, does that give Joe the Superior Right to throw me out of America? Where does this idiocy even come from?

THAT is what I was driving at, their senseless drivel about how long Jews have been there. POOF, gone.

Yeeeeessss..... umm... of course, the above is only relevant if you are working on the assumption that "the Jews" are ACTUALLY trying to get rid of the Palestinians. (analogous to Joe throwing you out of America.) I don't doubt for a second that there are some ultra-orthodox Jews, or ultra-Nationalist Israeli nutters of all religious stripes (or both, under the same hat) who DO aspire to that. However, history would suggest that this is NOT Israeli national policy.

Quote

I didn't pick them because I thought they were going to win. I stand by them because they need help to get their human rights restored.
I could ripost by saying "well, they'll have to start acting like humans first", but that would be harsh, so I won't. :P

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#12    Earl.Of.Trumps

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:50 AM

View Postand then, on 03 August 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

And round and round we go.  I'm 53 and I've watched this little drama since Nixon put our nuke forces on alert back in 73.  The song remains the same, it's only the singers who come and go.


Yah. In  my lifetime it went form Yasser Arafat to OBL', ISIS,  and beyond. But the theme never changes.

WHY?

View Postand then, on 03 August 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

The Palestinians seem to have gotten a raw deal - that's life, it happens.  In fact it is far more common than any "fairness" that life normally provides.  In case you hadn't noticed, the Jews got a sizeable chunk of that raw deal too - and for far longer.  It really IS sad that the two cannot come to an accommodation and live side by side.  It will never happen now though.  It's also sad that the rest of the planet is going to get burned by taking sides in this squabble.

So, apparently you do not believe in LAW.

I got a raw deal too, when somebody scrawled a nail all the way around my vehicle. I called the cops.

Who are the Pals going to call, the &&&&&& UN?

Grow some balls

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#13    RoofGardener

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 10:10 AM

View PostEarl.Of.Trumps, on 04 August 2014 - 04:50 AM, said:

Yah. In  my lifetime it went form Yasser Arafat to OBL', ISIS,  and beyond. But the theme never changes.

WHY?



So, apparently you do not believe in LAW.

I got a raw deal too, when somebody scrawled a nail all the way around my vehicle. I called the cops.

Who are the Pals going to call, the &&&&&& UN?

Grow some balls

Who are they going to call ?
Easy:
Call 972-2-6705555, and ask to speak with Benjamin Netenyahu. Expain that enough is enough, and would he be willing to lift the Gaza siege, if WE (the Palestinians) stop firing rockets. Explain that we would be willing to allow inspectors in to demonstrate that we are not re-stockpiling rokets, or digging tunnels.

THEN

Call (+32) 02 299 11 11, and ask to speak to President José Manuel Barroso. Explain that we have just established Peace with the State of Israel, and could we have a billion euro's in aid development money to rebuild the Gaza Strip and the West Bank ?

THEN

Call +1 202-456-1111, and ask to speak with President Obama, and request the same thing.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Alternatively, you can insist on a right of return, throw rocks at Israeli soldiers, fire rockets, and live a short, brutal, miserable life.

Guess which the Palestinians will choose ?
Correct. None of the above, because they don't GET a choice. That was a trick question.

Now.. the REAL question: which option will the Muslim Brotherhood choose on behalf of the Palestinians ?
You got it.
Pass the rocks, Hasan..

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#14    pbarosso

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 08:31 PM

View PostRoofGardener, on 04 August 2014 - 10:10 AM, said:

Who are they going to call ?
Easy:
Call 972-2-6705555, and ask to speak with Benjamin Netenyahu. Expain that enough is enough, and would he be willing to lift the Gaza siege, if WE (the Palestinians) stop firing rockets. Explain that we would be willing to allow inspectors in to demonstrate that we are not re-stockpiling rokets, or digging tunnels.

THEN

Call (+32) 02 299 11 11, and ask to speak to President José Manuel Barroso. Explain that we have just established Peace with the State of Israel, and could we have a billion euro's in aid development money to rebuild the Gaza Strip and the West Bank ?

THEN

Call +1 202-456-1111, and ask to speak with President Obama, and request the same thing.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

Alternatively, you can insist on a right of return, throw rocks at Israeli soldiers, fire rockets, and live a short, brutal, miserable life.

Guess which the Palestinians will choose ?
Correct. None of the above, because they don't GET a choice. That was a trick question.

Now.. the REAL question: which option will the Muslim Brotherhood choose on behalf of the Palestinians ?
You got it.
Pass the rocks, Hasan..

OMG you are so ignorant. they have a choice. they have the choice to fire rockets from uninhabited locations.

they have the choice of airing hate-filled tv shows for children

they have a choice to force the militants to stop or they will get bombed to ****.

they have a choice buddy. they have a choice to co-exist. but they dont, and if you have read anything of the history of islam, its all about conquest. from the very beginning. so put that in an israeli pipe and smoke it.

I support rule of "might makes right" squirrels do. bears do. elephants do. how are we any different?

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#15    RoofGardener

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 08:37 PM

View Postpbarosso, on 09 August 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

OMG you are so ignorant. they have a choice. they have the choice to fire rockets from uninhabited locations.

they have the choice of airing hate-filled tv shows for children

they have a choice to force the militants to stop or they will get bombed to ****.

they have a choice buddy. they have a choice to co-exist. but they dont, and if you have read anything of the history of islam, its all about conquest. from the very beginning. so put that in an israeli pipe and smoke it.

I support rule of "might makes right" squirrels do. bears do. elephants do. how are we any different?

You didn't actually READ my post, did you pbarosso ?
You call me ignorant ? And yet you don't understand who controls the Palestinians ?

OH well. Horse. Water. Drink.

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